SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hello and welcome to season 10 of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, the podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer director Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

I'm Nick, who loves Alex Garland. And I'm William who also loves Alex Garland. And today we're gonna do the season series finale, episode eight of Devs. And today we have our great friend Dave Jordan on to discuss this series. Hi guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

How are you? I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

It's been a couple episodes, quite the span of time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

It's actually probably that well, no, I was gonna say it's probably the shortest amount of time between episodes, but it's not because I did X Mogia and then Devs episode one. So that would have been the shortest amount of time. Exactly. Second shortest amount of time between episodes.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we could kind of beat around the bush and ask you how you're doing, maybe promote your new pedal and all that kind of stuff that's coming out. But before we get to that, we need the Steely Dan report because we almost got into it before we started recording. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Smart enough we held off.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

So please provide the context to the listener, William, which I don't remember.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I did a fairly lengthy rant on how I hate Steely Dan, and I compared them to the Little River band. Bad comparison. And I said they are guitar noodley uh grateful dead without the drugs.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Okay. Absolutely untrue. Okay, just different drugs.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Valid.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Valid.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

Mushrooms are fishing.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Psychedelic acid. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah. So Steely Dan is essentially a duo. Steely Dan was not a person. Steely and Dan. It was Walter Becker and Donald Fagan. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

That's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

That were two different.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

I know how to pronounce that last name, but I won't because I'll have to bleep it.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

But I also know what their fans are called, and it's his last name.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So they were the noodly is absolutely correct, but they were cocaine. They weren't cocaine from they weren't weed, they weren't psychedelic.

SPEAKER_04 2:04

Like Stevie Ravon coke like noodly, kind of like noosey noodly.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

No, more like um disco new disco coke. Oh right, so like yes, they were guitar noodly, but like they were 70s, they were kind of proggy. They were like they were they were associated with the yacht rock thing, but they always hated that association because they felt like they were above it.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Yeah, they were musicians.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Yeah, so like Steely Dan, those two guys were like the music school assholes that felt like they were better than all their contemporaries, and they were very accomplished musicians.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

So Prague adjacent then rather than blues adjacent.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Yeah, Walter Becker played guitar, uh, Donald Fagan played keyboards. Okay. Oh and the rest was session people? The rest was always session people. Okay. Wow. Always. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

And what's the music sound like, Dave?

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Cocaine. The music sounds like that's Eric Clapton, I think. Sounds his son. Circa 1980 cocaine. Interesting. Right? So like the Stevie Ray Von thing's not really that apt because while he was totally fucked up on cocaine, yeah, he was just playing blues.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Just blues. Yeah. And he was very good at it, but he was just doing blues. These guys were more of like the prog noodly odd time signature kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Music school.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

You know, just talking about yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Things like owner of a lonely heart, that era of yes is not that drastically different from a lot of what Steely Dan was.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Do they have tasty riffs for Nick to get into? No. See. Okay. No, I can't listen to them then.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

But you know, there's no idea.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

You can't.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

You won't. There's one.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I mean you could, but you won't. There's one Steely Dan record that if you were curious, I would recommend. What is it? It's called Asia. It's AJ A.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Uh-huh. Um. And, you know, but they they also had a couple other songs along the way that you probably would have heard in in things that you'd recognize. Yeah. You would never know they were Steely Dan.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

I was gonna say they have hits, you just wouldn't put their name to that song.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

Um, I have actually just seeing the picture of them. That's fucking hilarious. What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, that's what the yep, that's what they look like.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

I think that's us in a parallel universe, William.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Honestly, yeah, that is me if I had any bit of self-confidence in the 70s and 80s.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

That's me if I got in a pot when I was in middle school. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Uh we had talent in music. They undoubtedly were huge potheads, but they don't sound like music. Yeah, they didn't write pop music. They didn't do the grateful dead, we're just gonna get high and jam for two hours, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

They didn't record their sound checks as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

They were way they consider themselves way more highbrow. So which is which is ironic because a lot of their songs are really fucking lowbrow.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

Yeah. I think I will like this record, William, because it's seven songs and it's 40 minutes. That's right up my fucking alley.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Uh all right.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Well, we'll get seven. No, no, the irony, the irony is that you guys call there's a you guys both love Mars Volta. Yeah. Yeah. Mars Volta doesn't exist without Steely Dan. I believe. Okay, interesting. Not at all. Not even a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

And I like the opera.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah. So you actually might really like Steel Daniel. I don't like Stevie Dan.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

I don't know why I don't like Steely Dan. Well, aside. But I think it's more as a concept than it is the actual I because I I did run through a few songs and I was like, oh yeah, I've heard these for sure. And they're good songs, and I didn't know it was them.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'll listen to that song.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

I'll listen to that album.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Well. Especially before that fucking J. Cole double helping bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Well, why are you bringing it up? We didn't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

And we didn't talk about it. Drake dropped three full albums. Just to twitch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Did you listen to those Drake records?

SPEAKER_02 6:05

It's not important. I knew you would.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

I told you. Of course I did for the which one.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

The anthropology of it. Yeah. I didn't listen to him because I did. At one point, I actually asked Mike Sanchez about Drake. Uh-huh. Because I was Drake curious. This was maybe like a decade ago when he was like really starting to like starting to like hit.

SPEAKER_04 6:27

Hotline bling is catchy.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

And I was like, It's so funny. That's the one you go to every time. That's the only one I know.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

You know, like 14 in 28. Yeah, a God's plan started from the bottom. Now we're here.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

See, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

I know that line. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

So like I couldn't place it in a side. I was getting more into hip hop at the time. So Mike Sanchez being a lot of our touchstones. Yeah. This was long enough ago that yeah, obviously we still all already had streaming services, but it maybe wasn't as curated. So just as kind of a like, hey Mike, give me some suggestions.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

I was kind of like, hey, would what about Drake? And he was like, don't listen to Drake. Hell yeah. And I never I never did. Yeah. I never did.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Yeah, yeah. It's a good recommendation, I think. I'm assuming. Which of the three is the best record? Because you said there are three different genres.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah, so one's RB. Okay. One's like club dance, and then one's just rap.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Which is funny because while I was listening to the the dance one, I was like, this might be the one Nick likes because you like like heavy bass uh bad boonie. Oh yeah. I was like, you might enjoy the dance one.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Made of honor.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

And then the rap one, I was like, I don't think you're gonna like this one.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

No, I'm not gonna listen to Drake. I don't care. It's one of those things I've gone so long, I've never been interested in him. He's corny, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, I've never seen Titanic.

SPEAKER_04 7:52

No shit.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah. It's really good. No, I don't care. It's very good. Yeah, it's good. It's very good. Look, that's fine. James Cameron. How's he do it? Yeah. You'll be impressed. You'd like it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe. The only reason why I want to do him for a season is because I have the question.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

That's the remnant of teenage Dave Gordon being like, this movie's the biggest movie. What's the fuck this movie? Yeah. Right? Because that's 97, so that's kind of that area.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

I mean it's like there there were friends in our friend group that didn't watch The Dark Knight, and they were like, Well, now I'm just not gonna. Because I went long enough, and everyone's saying it's like the world's greatest thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

You know, honestly, honestly, it it it was a huge.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

I'm just thinking of high school years because you know, that's what you do when you're a kid.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

You know, I'll say that like titties. Because I was like, I want to wait till like the initial hype is kind of the bloom is off the rose and I can just kind of take it more objectively. Yeah, I don't know that it was a similar thing with Titanic. I just didn't watch it for a long time, and then there may have been a point where I wasn't watching it intentionally like that. Yeah, and then it it absolutely just got to the point where I was like where I was like, I don't I'm 45. It's been almost 30 years. I don't need to see Titanic. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

It's good, yeah. It's really well made. But you are right, you get it.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Yeah, you know that he's good.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

I'm not missing out on anything by not seeing Titanic.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

It's literally like an epic romance action movie. It's really it's yeah, it's very good, but you're not gonna. I mean, it is very long, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, you're fine. I'm feeling that long.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

I rewatched it, I think, last year, maybe, but not yet. It was good, yeah. You got to a Dan Record to listen to, and next week you have a 30-minute Vince Staples album to listen to. That's already next week. Yeah, June 5th, I believe. So very excited. Nice, yeah. Yeah, I'll definitely producers it's supposed to have a little bit more of an aggressive kind of live instrument edge to it.

SPEAKER_04 9:51

Well, he released a second song. Yeah, white flags.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

The video was it's very Vince Staples. I didn't watch it. It was him in a warehouse, and he has a American flag, and behind it, very translucent, barely make out, there's a dude in a clan robe behind the flag. Uh-huh. And he puts it on floor and just paints it pure white, and then he shoots it with a gun, then it's like the red bleeds through. Yeah, he's on his uh he's in his shit.

SPEAKER_04 10:18

This is a question. I mean, probably for people younger than us, but how are music videos now on the rise again due to like TikTok and stuff like that? No. Because you know, 10 years ago they kind of cratered, no one really spent at least record labels didn't spend money on music videos anymore. But now, I don't know, maybe they're bigger in hip-hop or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

But TikTok, I think just because of YouTube. I was gonna say it's I mean that's what it is. YouTube is just where so many people get so much of their content now, including podcasts and stuff for sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

I mean podcasts.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

So there may be more on the rise again if people are spending money on the street.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

You know, you do a video and then you also do a lyric video because people love watching the lyric videos, that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

But I knew that they music videos a lot of bands would do that instead of like even you know, music videos for their singles or something.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

And uh, you know, uh to keep it with what we're saying is like part of Drake's rollout is that night when the three albums came out all at once, he essentially did um like film production quality music video for almost I think every song on the rap album was. He pulled a Beyonce. Well that's what I was thinking. I think she's the one that brought it back, right? She was the one that was like a visual album. Exactly. And he did that for this, and it was huge. Shane Gillis is in while he plays the bigger. Oh, yeah, which said that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

By the way, you know, we can this is maybe a whole other conversation, but I legitimately think that Lemonade is maybe the most important record of this century.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

It's 10 years right now, 2016, same year as Frank Ocean's Blonde, same year as a lot of really good 2016's one of the like high-end for music. That's one of those years. I I kind of super agree. My only problem with saying that is everything she released after is as good, maybe not as culturally important. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Like they're all really good, right? But that's why I said important.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Blonde or lemonade is the whole the whole Jay-Z Beyoncé conversation, that's a big one. But like who's better, you mean?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

No. Well, the lap goes on when there's billions in the elevator. I don't know what that means. So the whole Nickel.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Well, I know that he, you know, that's the whole impetus. I know the impetus for the record. Yeah, sure, sure. But I don't understand what you're saying now.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

What is like Jay-Z cheated on Beyonce.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Well, the of course is the part where people are like on Beyonce. Beyonce.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

Yeah. Ethan Hawke cheated on Uma Thurman.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Uma Thurman's not fucking Beyonce.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

But here's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Here's Urma Thurman's closer to Kelly from Destiny's Child than Beyonce from Destiny's Child.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Well, I mean, that's pretty rude to Uma Thurman, I think.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Pretty fucking good. Part of the discussion is that like Jay-Z cheated on Beyonce. Like, dude, what are you doing? But because of that, we got lemonade.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

And then we got 444.

SPEAKER_04 13:13

They're still together. I mean, they figured it out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah. But I have a friend that hypothesized that like they're dumb. They're still being together is strictly a business to say.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

It's like a Will and Jada kind of thing. I think they patched it up. I mean, he literally that album you can't his album, her album, you can put out and break up. You can't put out four for four if your relationship isn't in a good place. That is the album that would end everything because he came out and he's like, I was cheating on you and causing you to have miscarriages, and we couldn't have kids because of the stress I was putting you through. Yeah. And when like we like went official, I told you, don't embarrass me. Like he's putting that on the world stage. There's a play, there's a world where that hurts her career. If they split and he's talking that vulnerable about that stuff, like I think you can only do that because your relationship is good. If they weren't good, he doesn't make that and he just lets lemonade be what it was. 444 is crazy to do. Also, if you add in all the cultural of you don't think that there's an element of save trying to save face rather than you don't do that album to save face, you do a the the one after the like we love each other joint album to save face. The hey, we're fine. No, I mean I don't think you fall on your sword at that level to save face.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Well, if you're trying not to her, if you're trying to portray yourself as like, I'm a good guy, I'm admitting I did wrong, like I'm owning up to what I did. That's what I mean by saving face. Like like just being honest, like I fucked up, I'm telling everybody I fucked up, I'm owning it.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah. You know, I I get it, but I I think it's just you you don't get to make that album and tell those stories about someone on the level of Beyoncé until she's okay with you doing it. Where I think you make lemonade and he does it. Like he heard it when we heard it, and they're at the dinner table and he's like, So I heard your uh album. That was pretty interesting. Yeah, it's you gotta say, don't you? You know, like that's not the 444. She was in there, and she goes, Yeah, you can write about that. Okay, dude. That's how I feel like that.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Yeah, because she's at this point, she's I mean, Jay-Z's a big deal, and I I mean you and your brother talked about this a lot on our last State of the Friendship one last year. And I cut it all out, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Oh, did you? Okay. We couldn't, we couldn't segue. It was a full-on tail spin with the case.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Okay, but Sean is not a fan of Jay-Z and that kind of stuff, and and but he is, you know, kind of a cultural juggernaut. But at this point in their careers, I get he's a billionaire and that kind of stuff. But like Beyonce is it's like saying that Taylor Swift and and uh Jake and Travis Kelch are the same on the same level. You know what I mean? They're not Beyonce's so much bigger than fucking Jay-Z. So it's like it would be it's well you know what I mean. I don't think it really matters. The only reason why she means the bigger record, no one's really talking about the Jay-Z record.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

The only reason why they're not on the same level now culturally is because she keeps making music and he's now in business. That's what I mean. Yeah. So who gets it? But I mean, there was a period of time.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Yeah, but there was a period of time where he was, I mean, they were the power couple because he was the biggest name. He's still a king and those early aunts and yeah, but then yeah, he just kind of post Lemonade, he just kind of disappeared for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

He throws a verse out every couple years and that's it. But like which I get you're not you did it a lot, you're not interested in it, but he made the black album. He made a few albums. He made a few albums but reasonable doubt. He made the black album. I know. American Gangster is not bad. That's American Gangster's not bad, guys. Sure. Run it back. Enter Sandman.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

That's so funny. Is that on the black album? That's uh that's a that's the embarrassing. Is that on the black album? I couldn't name what's on the black album.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Surprise he did fucking Hetfield over here doesn't punch you in the face right now. That's what I'm saying. He's related to him, bro.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Look at him. Yeah. Um I'm being uh I'm being a big uh Dave Mustaine right now. Here's the thing. Here's the thing about Metallica's black album. It's not saying anger. So Nick, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

It's not it's not saying anger, but it's not much better.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

That's great. Hot takes from Dave. That's so hot takes. I have no opinion on it, but that's I like that take. That's fun.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

I ye uh I so okay, so we are I think me and me and Dave might I have very little to say about Metallica, but we might agree a little bit on the Metallica take.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

This is a thing that I do because, you know, Tylenol, but like I don't know, maybe like six years ago, I was thinking about the fact that I'd been listening to Metallica for most of my life, probably since I was like 12, and I probably would have been in my late 30s at the time. I was thinking about how much I love early Metallica, and I was legitimately curious. I was like, there's so much of their late catalog that I don't care for. How much Metallica do I actually like? Yeah. And I went through their entire catalog and made a spreadsheet. Nice, yeah, tier lists good. So now I've done this with several bands. I've talked about this, yes. I remember but this one was the most basic because it was very much just like, do I like it or not? So every song got a pass, a 50-50, or a fail. Oh, nice. So it got a point, half a point, or no points. I like that. And then I very clearly had a percentage of this is how much a Metallica I like. And um the first three records are well, Kill Em All was a nine and a half, but basically, like Master Puppets and Ride the Lightning are perfect scores. Yeah. I think a lot of people don't want to admit that Justice for All is not that good. Um the songs are really long, they're not edited, it's just like bloated. It is like, and Justice for All is like the Alan Moore comic of Metallica Records.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Very niche reference. Yeah, but you get it. But I get it. You know exactly what I mean. You know exactly what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

So good. But then you get into like the later period stuff, and basically black album through Saint Anger is all very rough.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

How many albums are between those two records?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

So it's black album, load, reload, and then Saint Anger.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Okay, so two.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, load and reload are are also very bloated records.

SPEAKER_04 20:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

But there's okay stuff on both of them. But like realistically, I mean Saint Anger is absolutely the low point, but the black album's really not that much better.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Well, it's like their first turn to pop stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, it's like way more hard rock, it's way more radio friendly.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Um, but then you know, then they kind of like turn the corner again, and their late period stuff is like not all great, but at least it's like 50-50.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Yeah. Because how many albums have there been after Saint Anger?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Like four or five already?

SPEAKER_04 20:32

Uh it feels like it, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Death Magnetic, Hardwired to Self-Destruct, 72 Seasons. I think it's just those three.

SPEAKER_04 20:41

Okay. So three.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Because they're taking they're old, so they're taking a lot longer for two records soon. Yeah, it's a lot of albums, though. But they've been at it for a long time. Basically, it's like three amazing records, and then kind of like six that are like and then like three records that you're just like about halfway. Uh it's like 50-50.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

I mean, that's honestly late stage bands at their age.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

They could be much worse.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

Yeah, 50-50 isn't bad. That's good numbers.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

And that's that's because I'm here for motor breath metallica. Sure. When you start doing five-minute guitar, acoustic guitar intros, I'm like, I'm out. I hate all of that. Sure. I'm out. I'm over it. I'm here for the yeah, which I think that's that's black album stuff, right?

SPEAKER_04 21:28

That's the the slower stuff is yeah, yeah. Acoustic.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

I'm here for the crazy. Justice for all is kind of when they start dipping their toes into it a little bit, but like mostly that's yeah, the black album and then later, and that's when they start doing the symphony stuff, and you know, yeah. Or I think most people are probably on the same page.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

I will give them some credit that the late period stuff is the post St. Anger stuff is actually better than most people give it credit for, but it's a lot great.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

It's fifty fifty. It's okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

Yeah, you can't you can't ask for much and That the late stage of massive bands' careers you just can't.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Those guys are in their 60s now. Yeah. You know, you just can't.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

So, Dave, before we get into devs, I do want to give you an opportunity for those seeking the same tones of Lars Ulrich's snare drum and sane anger. Uh huh. You have done the same thing with your new pedal, but for guitar. Oh, yeah. 100%. So I wanted to give you the stage to uh let the people know what's what you've been up with with uh non-human audio.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Uh well, last time we talked about it a little bit because I just put out like the teaser video. Yes. But I did put out uh two weeks ago now. Wait, what's the date? Week and a half? I don't know. Time's time's weird. Uh I just put out a reverb pedal called Regrets. Nice. Uh it's doing pretty well. People seem to really like it. So yeah. Reverb's cool. Reverb is cool. So I'm pretty, I'm pretty proud of it, and I'm glad that people are like really connecting with it.

SPEAKER_04 23:02

Yeah, I've seen a lot of the demos. Yeah, me too. Very fun stuff on Instagrams.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, people are using it and I like it.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Thanks, guys. You never get out of the the nervousness around a release. Even though at this point I can be fairly confident I'm going to sell X amount of pedals, and I can be fairly confident that people that like what I do are going to continue to like what I do. There's always that kind of like moment that happens, kind of like right before you put it out, where like you've got them all built, they're shipped out to the dealers, you're about to put them on sale, and you're just like, Did I fuck this up? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Is this actually bad? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Are people kind of like this?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Could I have made this better? Like, you know, there's always that happens every time, I think.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

So yeah, that's a good uh this brings up a good question that I've been curious about. Do you send out like review copies to musicians that you like, people that you work with, or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, so you know to influencer musicians, whatever the fuck it is. Well, if I can, I try and have friends play the prototypes.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Yeah. Just to get feedback.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Exactly. So I can get feedback.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

So I can not audio feedback.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah. So uh where I can get I can get input, you know, uh on things that might need to be developed further or tweaked or whatever. Um and then yeah, so some of the gain insight. Hey. Um but yeah, and then so so some of the stuff that you see on Instagram would be like demo copies.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

And some of those, some of that's essentially sponsored content. I do pay some of those people to like create those demos for me. Of course. Sometimes they're just friends that will do it. I'll send them a pedal and they'll do it for free.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Yeah. Um get a free pedal, get some free promo.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

But also sometimes, like, if I happen to know a musician or something, and I think they'll really like it, I'll just give them one.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

You know, because like if I if I feel like somebody's gonna put it to good use and or if you respect them or something, you're like, hey, dude, you want to. Yeah, so like there's been a few times where I've I've been really fortunate. Like this guy, Alex, who plays in a band called Weird Nightmare. Now he was also in a band called Mets for a long time that I was a big fan of.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Meet the Mets.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

It's M-E-T-Z. Uh actually. So um copyright. You know, when I was putting out my last pedal, the kimchi, he like responded to like one of the posts about it. I was like, hey dude, I'll send you one. Yeah. Like, and now he's like using it on the weird nightmare tour and stuff, and it's just like that's really cool. Like that's what you you always hope will happen with like something that you get to do like that. And it doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does. You know, you know, I'm pretty sure I told you guys about my friend who was playing one of my pedals on stage with Mumford and Sons. Yeah, exactly. Which is like, like, that's what the fuck, yeah. What? Like, how is that yeah, how is that real?

SPEAKER_04 25:58

I remember Andy talking about wanting to take a box of pedals to uh fucking West Borland and like just like hey man, I I know you have your own pedal, but I want to give you some of these.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

You got to meet Wes, and yeah, you know, it's like sometimes it's just like it's like you're giving your guitar hero some stuff that you've worked with, or yeah, that's fucking cool.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

That's just oh he's legitimately Andy's guitar hero. Yeah, he's like uh it's all time.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

But it's you know that those are just cool interactions to get to have that I never really expected I'd ever get to have. I never expected to be in this position, and it's like yeah, it's always really cool when I get to do that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Sick. So the new pedal's not doing well, folks. If you go up there, I'm just gonna uh bust.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

It'll make you sound exactly like West Borland. That I wish.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Just think West Borland and again the snare. The snare.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

So apparently, and like the it's funny you mentioned that because apparently it's not in the documentary that they made about making Saint Anger, which is one of my favorite movies. Yeah, some kind of monster, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But apparently what happened was like was basically like one time like Lars accidentally had the snares of the snare drum off. Ah, yeah, and they just thought it sounded so weird and different that they just went with it. And that's that's when you're just like, Alan Moore, you need an editor, man. You need somebody that's gonna tell you no. Yeah, for real.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Yep, yeah. Where's the producer? Where's the engineer? Come on, I get that the guys are rich, yeah. Just tell them fucking no, just tell them no, and I know that he's an asshole, but it's uh he's gonna be an asshole anyway. Yeah, so just tell him no. What a choice.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah. So before we get into this episode of Death, I do need to bring up something about last episode.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Of course, with Josh Jenkins.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

With Josh Jenkins, mostly involving you, William, and Josh. Okay, because Nick wasn't so much part of this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, then now I know what you're talking about, then. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Do you?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Is Katie an asshole? No, no, no. The God thing, the free will, all of that conversation? No, not so much.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Okay. So you guys were specifically talking about the scene with um Lyndon on the dam. Yes. And you misgendered Lyndon all the time. The whole time.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

I know. I can't help it.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Because I'm thinking Kaylee, not Linden.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

I know, I know. It's tough. But you and Josh both did it, and I wanted to address that. I wanted to give you the opportunity. I'm dumb too. I'm sorry. I don't know, atone for your sanders.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Kaylee, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah. And I get it. It's female actor playing a male. Male or both or at least a it was written male.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yeah. Okay. And he couldn't find, he was looking for a specific kind of pre-pubescent look. And he was like, why don't we just go old school how we do voice actors?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I also do think it's like absolutely a testament to the show that like Lyndon could be a trans man. Sure. And it's never addressed. He's just referred to as he. But you guys were dropping she. I know. Uh so much. And I just wanted to bring it up. And I think you know it is said I'm not sure. I think it's worth it's worth noting.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

And the only reason why I do that is because I am legitimately. I'm thinking Kaylee's spinning. I know. I'm not thinking the character Lyndon. And I think the time when I trip myself up, I try to force use the name Lyndon. Because I'm like, stop thinking Kaylee. Yeah. The character's name Lyndon. Use the name Lyndon because I I can't stop. Yeah. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

That's all that's that was I had I I specifically made that note as I was listening to the last episode because one or two, like obviously, yeah, we should all be doing better. One or two happens. It was the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

And it was a long conversation. Yeah. I thought you were gonna hit me with the God is love and love is real in order to get into it.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

What's that from?

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Uh a little A Little Diddy by uh Me Without You. Uh, that's what it is. Yeah, okay. I had a segue about something about choices, but uh Yeah, we all chose to uh watch this and still come back to talk about it. Yes. Is that because you guys love this ending?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Is this a good ending for the show? Episode eight. There are things about this ending. There are things about this ending and things about this episode that I love. There are things about this ending and episode that I think are really interesting in the context of what I think Alex is saying, also in the repeated thing that I keep coming back to that I brought up in Ex Machina a ton about the idea of control. You know, you're talking about determinism and the ability to make choices, like his whole thing that I keep coming back to of like Alex. No matter how much you try and control, there are always things that are out of your control. This episode is that. Yeah, that's what makes Lily special. Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Well, and yeah, and I was reading and I was kind of fascinated by no worry.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Because we get that's for Josh. He can't.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

He said we didn't fight enough for the past couple episodes.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I know, I know. Uh but the but if you need to, I'm here as the moderator.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

I appreciate it. Yeah, Nick. You are the best moderator between the two of us.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

That's what I mean. Nick needs all the help he can get.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Dealing with this guy. Uh the we all get the it's not devs, it's Deus, right? Right, and we get funny. The relationship between Deus Ex Machina, ex machina.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

And which I do have to say, specifically to that point, God, they don't tell us what that means. So I they like Forrest says it, he says it was always an inside joke. It's Deus. And Lily says, it's Deus. And then later, Katie and Forrest say it to each other, yeah, but they never tell us why that's important. And I really I actually really liked that.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it and it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

They never tell us what that means.

SPEAKER_04 32:01

So Deus Ex Machina means God in the machine, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

So or the machine of God. Correct. Hand of God. And hand of God, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

And the what Alex Garland said, I I read like an interview him with Rolling Stone, or he did with Rolling Stone after this episode came out. And he was talking about this being a companion piece to Ex Machina, and the way that there are different sides of the same coin of ex machina is about a man who wants to become God by creating something, and devs is about people who want to create God, which I was like, oh yeah, that's that's kind of fascinating. And he meant to put in some allegories, which I didn't pick up on. I mean, it makes sense now here at the end with Katie saying uh, you know, original sin and all that kind of stuff, but it's like she's supposed to be the alleg, you know, the analogue to Eve and the fall of Eve and all that kind of stuff, yeah. And obviously all the all the things that it's touching upon, belief and and yeah, this I think Offerman does such a good job whenever like his illusion of her making the choice is like fucking shattered when he like literally has seen himself get shot in the head all the time or many, many, many times, and then she you know many such cases, she goes on a different fucking branch of the timeline and throws the gun away. And it's just like it it I think he he shows that kind of it. I mean, it's almost like deconstructionism, it's like where someone loses their faith in a moment, yeah, and just is fucking shattered by it. And I think that's so fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yeah, there's a great job with it. There's definitely a a psychological thing that happens that's like and it's a thing that happens to a lot of religious people. And I mean, you guys talked about this in re reference to like the computer being God and all this, and like last episode.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

But like we're here now.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

The faith, the faith-blindness of just like you get so deep into it, and in Forrest's case, he's so deep into drinking his own Kool-Aid that it never occurred to him, like, even though they talk about the many worlds theory, they talk about how the many worlds theory is the reason all these projections are actually working, and like he's so far up his own ass, it never occurred to him that he might not be like watching the right projection. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

It could be it could be predicting a different branch of the many worlds, exactly. Yeah, and it it's just like it never occurred to him that like something could go wrong because him and Katie chose not to make a different choice than what they saw. And Lily saw it and said, I'm not fucking doing that. Yeah, that's the difference. So all of it did happen. There are worlds where she fucking pulls the trigger and kills him. Yeah, maybe in that one she doesn't ask to fucking see it because I think that's a key moment uh for her character is watching it happen. And I think it's in that kind of viewing where she makes the choice of like, I'm not gonna fucking do that, I'm not gonna give in to these fucking zealots, dumbass. Yeah. Like she can see how she makes that choice when she's like, I do it for Jamie.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

There's a there's a really interesting bit of visual storytelling, too, because she's watching it happen, she has the gun in her hand, she's sitting there with Forrest, and then when it goes forward, but then kind of flashes back to her having that realization, the gun's not in her hand.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

I didn't catch that.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Sure, her hand is empty. She's standing there in front of the screen, and you can kind of like see it, but like she just doesn't have the gun. It's like that's the moment where it's you know, it's like such a short, small thing, but I I thought that was really nice.

SPEAKER_04 35:40

Yeah, that's great. I like that. Yeah, it's very, very well done. And I didn't remember a lot of it. And we took we've been talking about this as we're as we as we've been approaching the end. And I remember them going into the machine, that kind of thing, but I didn't remember how it happened, and I didn't remember the sequence of events. And again, ever since I finished this in 2020, I was like, in my head, I'm like, oh, I remember Devs being very good, but I don't know if it stuck to landing or not. Yeah. And I think it sticks to landing pretty well. And I'm kind of the more that we're watching his films and television, he just he always has fascinating endings. They're not really emotionally cathartic for me necessarily, which I think comes with having uncharismatic uh protagonists.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

But he's not for the most part, he's not writing emotionally driven things. Correct.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

Yeah, it's it's a lot of intellectually things, and even though there's always emotion in his butt, but uh absolutely to answer your question, you asked Dave like what he thought in in terms of how it ended. I think it ends pretty well. I like how it ends, I like where Katie ends up. I just think them being in the computer is a little I wish it was more sci-fi than that to me. I think that's what it was. I wish it was like what I I wish the machine, something like the machine, even though it is the machine is everything, right? Uh but it's just a little, it's a little more I even though it's based on more rigid scientific theories, it'd be more interesting if it was like a portal into the fucking multiverse or something like that. Instead of just like, oh yeah, it can just simulate everything so it can simulate these copies of it because that's not Forrest, that's not Lily. The Lily and Forrest are dead, and those are, of course, perfect replicas of them with their memories up to that point, but it's not them, they're just avatars in a fucking machine. And I love that Katie's like heartbroken and it's like, I need your help to keep it on. That's my favorite part. I fucking really love that because she talked about trying to be the one who keeps an eye on him and all that kind of stuff, and they love each other clearly, but he wants to get back to his family, and she gets to see him happy after she just watched him die in this machine, and we've never seen her vulnerable until that moment, the entire show. And for her to tell someone, I need your help to keep the machine on so that he can live his simulated life, whatever it is. Like, I I I I love that, but it it's still them just being chilling in the machine. I mean, it gets into the whole data equaling sentience, you know, enough data. What's the difference? Exactly, exactly. Like it gets into that, which it doesn't, you know, the show doesn't necessarily answer, and I don't think it does, but my brain dislikes answers, and since that's a little like very well, there's no difference, and that's what the whole show is. Sure, you can say that, but I don't feel that, yeah. You know what I mean? For sure.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

I get you. Because when you said the portal thing while you were talking, I was thinking, I was like, I think I do like that more, the idea of like if he had to go in that weird rat room, the dead rat table thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I haven't noted. I do like that idea more than the the consciousness into it. Exactly. But then again, this is just how they kept showing the machine working. It just feels like this is they left something on the table. The only way the show could end.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

So uh I do want to bring something up, a couple of things up about the rat table, actually. So I I always took it a little differently than you guys because you guys seem to land on the side of Forrest actually wanting to figure out how to physically resurrect his daughter.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

No, we weren't we couldn't remember.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Because like for me, I always saw it as like, oh, they're basically like taking the dead rat and recreating it in the machine because Forrest wants to just be able to recreate his actual daughter in the machine so he can talk to her through the he can exist with her through the screen.

SPEAKER_04 39:50

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

That that or or to go into the simulation and exist with her, right? Yeah, I that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

And I for I think we all came across it, even Josh mentioned it as like I also think it was kind of sort of an exercise of like computing data of like a mechanism, an organic, a dead, like it's just pulling and they keep pulling that data in so it can quantify these things and then simulate it in it. And so, yeah, I I I agree.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Yeah, the table didn't make sense until the end for me.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

I was like, what the fuck are they doing? They could be doing that.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

And that's why we brought the daughter thing up because I didn't remember much of anything of the end. I had the images of them walking around him telling her it's like the real world.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Lyndon also Lyndon also says he wants to resurrect his dead daughter. Yeah, it was said he specifically says that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

And that's that's where I was just like, is that what this is? Like he's gotta put her daughter on the table. Yeah, and that's where I was like, I don't remember that. I don't know if that is in I think it's cool they didn't fully explain it. I like that that's still a a pretty full-on mystery. Um, I have a little different reading of the episode in the end, obviously, with everything else I think of it, but I don't love the episode. Okay. As an episode, I don't love it. I like you saying what your favorite part was. My favorite part is when he's in the White Room being such a created, and she has to tell him, you understand what I'm telling you. This is many worlds. And he just kinda sort of is like, I don't, I don't care. Yeah, I just need to see her.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

He's accepted the fact that it may not be his daughter, yeah, but it is or his world or whatever. One of his daughters.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

This, yeah, okay, fine. I'm I was wrong. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

I just need it. Yeah. That's my favorite part. That's my because the whole thing from all these episodes and the big conversation. This is God. The machine is God. They figured the rules of the universe, they're right. They're right that that's God. He's exactly. I mean, it's all there, so I'm not like a genius to say what the episode's saying, but like that's how I read it. And yeah, she's a zealot. Katie's fully in, and he sees himself as a messiah being reborn into what he kept calling paradise. And the only reason why it's paradise is because he gets the one thing he wants. He didn't end wars, he didn't end racism, none of that. He just gets his daughter. He goes, This is paradise. You get to live with your spy boyfriend. Isn't that awesome? I was like, that's not her paradise. He didn't ask her for like you get one wish.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

So it's interesting you bring that up because like I made a note about that myself because like he puts Lily into the system without her consent. Yes. Oh, yeah. Just brings her back to line.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

He just with full consciousness and full memory.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

And now he does so now she knows what he did. Right. And he's he's basically like, you can be with your spy boyfriend or you can be with your other boyfriend. It's up to you. But I'm making the choice for you that that's what you want.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

And you are gonna go get coffee with the guy. I killed that guy, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

I killed like four people this whole time. You've met me, yeah, and I'm okay. And I actually got everything I wanted, and you have to be cool with that. Like there's such a and this is the thing is he's not Jesus, he's not Messiah, he's just a dude that figured out God because it's still selfishly involved. He's the fucking thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

He's just a dude that did some math.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

He's the Roman Catholic Church because the whole thing that you said is your favorite line in my head. That's the church going to the state, going, I need you to fund us to keep this going. We figured out God and religion. I now need your money to keep this all afloat and all alive for him to play God or play Jesus in his world. That's that allegory of how, like, well, yeah, now we need millions of dollars in Nazi gold and all of this stuff to keep spreading this and to keep the lights on because it's advantageous to us. That's that's how I read that.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

That's how I read all of this God's stuff. It's so interesting that like you had the emotional read and you had the purely, yeah, intensely cynical read.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yeah, because we're talking uh God religion through human hands, and that's pure cynicism. Where it's now a business, and she literally is talking to the government that will use this to spy and make weapons and ruin the world. She goes, I don't care, I just need your money, and we gotta keep it moving. Is like, I'm like, but yeah, that is literally how this works. Yeah, like uh Pontius Pilate was a man of the state, that's who killed Jesus. The state, like to quote killer Mike is like, that's that's how this happens. And so I read that I felt like Aralek Scarland was going as far as he could with yes, this is God. We gotta talk about all of it.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

That's interesting. I think that's an interesting take. Because yeah, the on the surface level is obviously exactly how Nick took it, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yeah, she loves the guy.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but it's interesting that like it successfully was that layered, certainly for you, of just like well, you know, like we've talked about, Alex isn't content to give you an answer. He wants you to think about it, he wants to have the discussion. Yeah, he's like in what you're saying, is like he could just give you the answer, but instead he's giving you these layers and potentially real subtlety, you know, of just like, I don't know, maybe we need to be talking about this.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Because my my my second favorite part of this episode is Katie's emotional response to the whole gun thing, and she's like, I don't fucking care how many times I saw this. Like, this is this is tough. That's really fascinating to me that they've sat and watched fucking force get blown in the face like hundreds of times, I would assume. If I saw that, I don't know if I could hold back from constantly watching something that disturbing over and over. So, like, I imagine they've seen it, and then she's like, Well, it's on trams, so I know how I know what I say, I know how it plays out. She's still emotionally reacting to what she deems inevitable. That's such a fascinating human thing. Yeah, you can't fight adrenaline back to the why Christians aren't excited when they get cancer on their deathbed. You're still emotionally reacting. No one's going, I'm I can't wait. I get to go to heaven. Everyone is like, I'm still scared. Yeah, I don't care that I know the answer and what's about to happen. I'm still fucking scared. And I love that, like, she he he wrote that for her. Not for him, but for her. Yeah. Uh yeah, I I love that. I need more Stuart in this episode. That's my biggest gripe. What the hell?

SPEAKER_01 47:22

I mean, I needed way more Stuart. His big moment was last episode.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

I just and it felt like a setup, uh, which it is, because he makes a huge choice and he puts this all in motion with them. But like, I needed more Lily puts it in motion. Well, you're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_04 47:38

But speaking of little details, I noticed in the dev simulation, even when she shoots him, he's still in the background, he still makes it fall. That's not the gunshot.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

No, no, no, because she shoots him and it shatters the glass and it breaks the vacuum.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

No, no, no, no. Stewart is behind there punching.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

I didn't notice.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Jamie, play that back.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, I mean, you look, you might be right. Yeah, that's what I thought I saw. But like it's like he does it. He's still you you might be right. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I gotta have to rewind it. I took it as she shoots him, it breaks the vacuum, and that's what yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

No, that's what I thought too. But especially, you know, seeing it. But yeah, going back, I'll have to try to pull it up.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

But I think that that's what I saw happen. Speaking back to what you were talking about, Dave, with the Alex posing questions, not giving us solid answers in this interview with Rolling Stone. He said, I can only express so much in creating the thing. That's only 50% of it. And he's like, at this point in my career, when he was making devs, he's like, I'm not gonna try to force my answers upon anybody because it doesn't matter how clear I think I make them, people will always interpret them a different way.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:49

Uh so he's like, so I'm just gonna put out my ideas, express what I can. That's 50% of it. The other 50% of it is what the audience thinks and what they bring to it. I do think that's yeah, I love that kind of way. Express yourself in a very intelligent way and just leave it alone.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

I do think that this was maybe the closest we've come to him expressing a specific opinion past the control thing that I always come back to. But like this does feel like him being like, there are people that are Josh Jenkins, and I don't believe that's the case. I this to me feels like him essentially being like, look, this forest guy thinks determinism is real. Yeah, I'm telling you, I don't.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

And he actually in the interview he says that uh he doesn't know, but that is what makes the most sense, but he can't prove it.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Yeah, and it feels like he's saying, like, uh, I accept that maybe the choice is essentially a many worlds thing because, like, yeah, we might be making choices, but we're making infinite choices.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Uh but it does feel like he's saying, like, but we're making choices. We're we're not on a singular, like, this is exactly what our life is gonna be like for everybody. That's what it feels like to me.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

I get that.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Like, like at the end of this episode, I was like, I feel like this is the closest we've come to him being like, I'm open to having the discussion, putting a theory out and then not agreeing with it. I'm open to having a discussion, but I'm leaning very heavily this way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

I get that. Yeah, it does feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Which I just I thought was really interesting because after you know, all these movies and all this hypothesizing in that classic sci-fi way of just like, uh, let's talk about this. Yeah, I felt it really pretty interesting that he took this chance to talk about his specific feeling on something.

SPEAKER_02 50:46

You know what's funny? What's the movie right after this? Isn't it men? That might also be the second time he makes the closest to a definitive statement, I think.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I and one for the listeners at home, I did ask if men was was open for that specific. Because there is like I feel like men is very pointed.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

And I feel like you know, you know, obviously devs comes before it, so I feel like this is the first one up until that point that is saying that.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

Sorry. So look at Stuart, he's gonna be over here touching the panel.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

He I mean he is standing over yeah, he's standing over there, but that's also just where he was standing before.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

No, but he's touching the panel. See what he's yeah, and the shot when it's when it's moving towards where Stuart is, he's punching in the panel right there. Yeah? Yeah, he's typing on the panel. Yeah. And that's and as soon as he's done, then it shifts. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I I get the and then she whatever that it cuts.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

But so sorry, sorry. No, but we did kind of talk about this in regards to men, too, where like I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, we talked about it in regards to men earlier, where it's like if you're that intelligent of a writer and this deep within kind of like philosophical discussions, people are starting to kind of like want you to comment on something. Yeah. And men very much feels like the expectation is like, well, what does he have to say about this? And he's like, You do not want to hear what I say about this.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

At a certain point, maybe his fans are like, he's it's gonna be nuanced and it good people on both sides. He's like, I'm gonna shut you down real quick right now. In two hours, I'm gonna make you hate my guts. I don't think there's you're gonna know what side I'm on.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

I I really don't think there's any for debate with men, I think it's very, very clear what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

It's I'm I am looking forward to the conversation from it, but yeah, there's a lot. I think there's gonna be a lot for us to talk about when it comes to that. What he's saying, how he says it, but also like, did anybody like what he's saying and how he says it? Because even if you were to say he picked a side, did that side go, hey, thank you. As you said that you know what I mean? Like there's something to all of that that I think is gonna be very interesting to talk about. With this show, I am let down with this being the final episode. Okay, and I only think it's because it's the least amount of puzzle and me kind of, I guess, mentally interacting. Like you're I'm I'm seeing it, I'm watching it, it is what it is, but it fell it feels inevitable. Like, I don't know how you end this otherwise that I would do that.

SPEAKER_04 53:43

Like but maybe that's the point as well.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

But and that's what I'm saying is like he's not the G. He's not a puzzle box and goes, Isn't it fun that there's mystery? He goes, We did the mystery, I'm ending my story, and I'm doing the there's an end here. There's a f there's a period to this, and here it is, and that's where I'm just like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

I think that's fair. I also do think I don't think it's his fault. Yeah, well, well, I was gonna say, like, I I think what you're saying is totally fair, but I I think that's not this show. Like, if it was left open-ended or some kind of I don't know, end of 2001-ish.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

I wouldn't like it more. It but that's also not the show that he's making, right? It's like he is making a show that has a something to say or things to say and an ending to this story. Yeah. And if it was left kind of, or if it took this like weird, you know, gateway to a multiverse twist or something, people would be like, ah, I don't know, man. Like we were going along and then there was like purple lights flashing, and yeah, then we just like saw Forest's face.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Like it's just the ass cheeks above the mouse and the lights flashing on them. Yeah, it would I I'm I'm here for that too. It would be a different show, though.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Yeah. Right? Because like, could it have been left a little bit more open-ended? Maybe. But at the same time, like we are dealing with science fiction that is rooted in our world.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

Yeah. So to take a very an actual physics, actual theoretical physics.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Yeah, uh, like, or um psyche kind of thing, uh-huh, you know, psychedelic, I guess, right? Yeah. It took that kind of trend.

SPEAKER_04 55:32

Yeah, yeah, the 2001 thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Yeah, it would, it would feel it would feel out of place, I think.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

And I think we'd be having a d the same discussion, but for different reasons.

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Yeah, I think. I think the uh when it comes to ending this story, the only other thing I was thinking is I'm I'm fascinated with Forrest coming to terms with the many worlds, admitting all of this, still going along with it. What if the idea of in this prediction and the prediction machine she throws the gun so when he puts himself in there, his daughter hates him? Like it's GC1 saying, like, it's just it's off.

SPEAKER_04 56:12

That's what I wanted to see.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

To see him reel with the like I want to see the world say went bad.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

I like to these different things to it. Yeah, they speak he speaks to the case. There's there's visual representations of that. One's an orange tinted, one's at sunrise, one's at sunset, one's at night, that kind of thing. They're having the same conversation. It's a clever way to show it, but I'm like, but they're having the same conversation. Those worlds aren't deviated enough to be interesting to me. I want to see Forrest there by himself where she's not there. I want to see her there and Forrest isn't there. I want to see the different I want to see multiple versions him naked in the bone temple.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Like, that's one of the he's the alpha, and it's like, how the fuck do we get here?

SPEAKER_04 56:57

That's what I want to see. Like, because you mentioned it, and because the show has Katie say it, you know what this means, right? So there's an infinite number of worlds where he's happy with Amaya and his family, and there's an infinite number where he's not. So I want to see some of those a little bit more than just the visual representation of him having that clear.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

It would be interesting. I think he might avoid it because of kind of what I was speaking to previously, is like we are taking morality out of this. Like we don't need to punish him. I don't want you to see him punished, but he's also like paradise doesn't look different than norm.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

He's recreating them from the moment that they were taken. So, like, there's in that moment, which is picking up like exactly there, there's not going to be a universe where his daughter hates him really. Yeah, because branching off from that moment where you know she was taken from him when she loves him, when she's a toddler. Does a future exist later where she's a teenager and she hates him? Yes. Yeah. Where she's a teenager and she loves him, yes, but like that's not the moment that we're in. Yep. Now, could they have extrapolated that more? Yeah, probably. Yeah. But that's also maybe another episode.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

I was gonna say that this is him not giving all the answers, but yeah, giving enough for your brain to think about it.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Well, the time that we are seeing Amaya doesn't die, so he doesn't create the devs for the building's not there.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Correct. He's still a Russian spy, which is funny to me. I like that. Yeah, yeah. That's fun. The Russians can be Russians. Legit I I enjoy, he's like, You're being fucking weird. Some touching my phone. I was like, that's I'm glad that's still part of it.

SPEAKER_04 58:46

I like that moment too, because she's like, Alright, yeah, fuck this guy. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Yeah, I get it. I know. That's your answer, your non-answer is the answer I needed.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, I I think it's I think it's an interesting way to wrap up. I'm also with you. It's not my favorite episode of the series, just in terms of like, there's some of them, like, and I'm forgetting the number now, is four or five or whatever, where like Katie is attending the lecture and then we see all the I think that's five. That's probably like my favorite episode of the whole thing because it's just so brilliantly visually explains the premise.

SPEAKER_03 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

In a way that we don't get before or after, you know. But yeah, I mean, this the this being the last episode doesn't taint my opinion of the series.

SPEAKER_02 59:30

No, I don't think so either. I I do it's so funny because I was I felt the exact same way Nick did. I was loving the show when I first watched it, and I was like, I don't remember why, but it's not something I ever talk about. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think about it too much. And the only thing I can probably chalk that up to is I was dumb and I didn't get it, and most of it went over my head because I wasn't paying attention to focus in like I am now. So it probably was like it came and went of like meh, and I didn't love Lily as an actress and a character. Right. So like the whole thing was like, no, it's cool, but I don't know, not my thing as much. And then now that I'm watching this, I'm like, yeah, it's not my favorite episode, it's not a bad episode. It is a good way to end the show because it's it it it needs an ending as finite, but not all the way as it is. I don't know if I can say right now I love the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:27

I really like it, I really like the ideas, I really like a few episodes. Episode seven's probably my favorite episode. I don't know if I love it as a series.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

It is really, really difficult, I think, to fall in love and express that connection to a piece of art that is so difficult, difficult and intellectually dense and emotionally lacking, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Like most of that came at the very end.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

Like we're sitting here dissecting this because it's we're doing it with intention.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

But like, how do you do that with a casual person?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

And who are you going to do that with? Casual people aren't watching devs.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

You know, like, how do you even recommend this to somebody? Unless somebody is like, I want the hardest sci-fi show that's ever existed. No fantasy, no spaceships. I want hard sci-fi concepts, I want to deal with philosophical things, and I want it to be eight episodes, and at the end, I don't want to actually really know what happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

It's it's it's either that or I really liked X Machina. That's it. Those are the two people you go, I got something for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Dude, even ex machina, I think people that really like ex machina, I think that this is still a hard sell. Yeah. Because for as smart and well-crafted all of his work is the the movies, there's still an element of it being consumable.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

I was gonna say they're short and fun. Yeah. Like eight hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

There's so there's so much in ex machina that is dense if you want it, but if you don't want it, you don't have to.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

If you don't want it, you get Oscar Isaac and Lady Robots. Yeah, boom, fun. He's dancing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

I was gonna say Nick Offerman and Allison Pill did not disco dance in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

No, and like that's the thing about devs that like ex machina has, devs doesn't have, is like there's no easy real way to watch this. Yeah, there's the spy angle, but at a certain point, the spy angle doesn't really matter anymore. And then what are you watching?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:47

Yeah, that's only the first half, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Yeah, that there's there's Kenton and stuff, but Kenton is sprinkled in there, and they're having deep discussions about God and quantum theories in and like that's what this show is, and like there's no there's no casual way to watch this, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:07

It showed Joan of Art. That's that's my favorite episode. Yeah, just that intro. That's the best part of the show for me. I fucking love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

That's I I re after uh the after I watched this episode, I went back and re-watched that intro. It's so good, and it disturbs me to know it. Yeah, it's I love it, but it's so disturbing it's amazing in a great way. And then I rewatched the caveman thing because that means something. Yeah, I love that. How do you feel about uh this Nick? What's your take on it? What we're talking about. Do you love it? You love the show? What are you thinking over there?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:39

Yeah, I'm with you guys, I think, or with William, at least in terms of I came out loving it, or yeah, I don't know. Yeah, maybe love's too strong of a word. I really like this show, but I love moments of it. It's that it's it's it's the um annihilation thing, exactly. It's the annihilation problem for me, where there are moments in it which are fucking astounding. And the concepts are really cool. I love the concepts, very fun science fiction stuff. Even the spy espionage stuff is interesting and and fun, and I think it's an interesting way into this kind of fucking crazy sci-fi story. So I really do enjoy it, but it's hard for me to emotionally walk in because you have Lily who's you know, this kind of somewhat uncharismatic protagonist. And you can do an unc uncharismatic protagonist in a film more easily than you can in a TV show. Because TV shows like the more time you spend with a character, the more you kind of come to love them, see with their point of view, that kind of thing. And I do empathize more with with her as it goes on, but there is some kind of anti-charismatic thing with with with her as an actress. Not rooting for her.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Empathize, yeah. Yeah, there are definitely moments where I empathize multiple, but I don't root for her.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:02

And I it's a it's part of the the issue with the structure that I have in terms of the audience knows more than her the entire time. It's very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

I don't root for anybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't root for I'm not at the end rooting for Forrest to win. I would have been fascinating if it fails. Because if we're talking about God and Christianity and all of this and many, yeah, I would have been fascinated by that too. So I'm not rooting for any character, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

I agree with you. I'm not rooting for anybody, which you know kind of takes you out of that emotional attachment a bit. But I want to follow up on what I put a pin in a couple episodes ago of like, okay, when the projection ends, right? So we we turn to static as soon as Stuart. Well, I think what I had read, most people online are like uh they lean towards it's the parallel to the nematode in the first episode to where you Can predict it for 30 seconds into the future, but then after that, there's just an infinite amount of ways that it could go, and then the the predictions collapse. And people are like, Oh, that's what's happening here. So after Forrest and Lily die, there are too many ways that it could go, so the system crashes or something like that. That's what people are pointing towards. But to me, and I I'm I don't I'm not necessarily looking for the answer of like, oh, I wonder why does it not? I I'm not wondering why it doesn't crash when she makes a different choice. I I don't it doesn't matter to me. And yeah, Stuart makes a thing, maybe Stuart's making it crash. I don't fucking know. But to me, when I was watching it a couple episodes ago, I'm like, which this didn't end up happening, but I was thinking in the writer's brain, and I was thinking about the zealots and all this kind of stuff, and I'm like, why aren't they thinking just maybe the machine gets destroyed? And that's why it stops predicting, because it can't predict something past its own demise. And I'm like, I wonder, and that's not the direction that Alex Garland goes, but in my head, I'm just like, oh yeah, why doesn't she just fucking destroy the machine? She has a gun. Why didn't she shoot the machine? And then that's why the prediction stops. But maybe that's too simplistic. That's why I'm not as good, I'm not an amazing writer like he is. But that popped into my head a few episodes ago where I'm like, that would make the most sense to me of why to shoot the computer. And the hubris of Forrest and Katie is just so much, they don't even contemplate that. Oh, that's why it stops is because the machine gets destroyed. But I don't know, but I guess you would see she would they would see someone destroying the machine.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

But I but also You can't kill God, Nick, no matter what Nietzsche says.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Well, I think also like it's a machine, so she shoots the machine and they build it again, sure. Or they just like replace the motherboard.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:43

I get it, but I But it's a quantum, it's some fancy quantum computer. I don't know. It looks fragile.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

I am right there. I'm I'm right there with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

But I don't know. That's what popped in my head a few episodes ago, and I was like, is that what happens? Because I couldn't remember what happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

Yeah, it looks like Dr. Manhattan's moon castle. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

It it because yeah. Alan Moore coming up exactly it's he's a through line here, but it's I know exactly what you're saying because it's the idea of she holds the gun, points at a force, and then the last second she just moves it to the right and then shoots the thing, and that's the like you yeah, it's right there. It feels such like a setup, and it's it's been this elegant fucking. I was gonna say, you mean shoot the thing they keep doing slow-mo close-ups of constantly in the episode? Yeah, it's like, yeah, it feels like he's leaning that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

I do need to point out, too, that thing is an immaculate, gorgeous piece of design.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:40

Oh, yeah. I guess it's a it's a chandelier in someone's house now, I reckon. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:44

Like, yeah, just like every time they showed it, I was just like, Jesus. Someone hung it on their ceiling. Someone designed that the fucking hell out of that thing. It is beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:53

Rob Hardy, cinematographer, beautiful brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

Can I tangent real quick? If we're gonna talk design, sure, the uh the side wall that Stuart's standing near when he tells the poem, and it's like this ivory etched with the yellow gold light coming through.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

It's the tree of life from Evangelion.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

No, that's what it looks like. It is, and if I can play the game and find a screenshot, it is so much the architecture in the Hallig Tree in Elden Ring. Oh, that's funny. That ivory and then the white light and the way that uh it's all arches, the way it's built. I'm like, that's it feels exactly out of that game.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:38

Planting seeds.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

And I'm like, he's destined. I don't I don't know Elden Ring. I can't place that visual, but this brings me back to, we're talking about design, this brings me back to the mouse table. Yeah. So the design of the mouse table is what's called a mandala, right? Sure. Which is if you say so.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:00

I've heard the word.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

Yeah, so a mandala is um a Hindu Buddhist example of what's referred to as sacred geometry.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

People think of this in in terms of like from the in a very basic way of like churches that are built in the shape of a cross. That's sacred geometry in that the architecture of the thing is form follows function. Is praising. Yep. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

So the mandala, which is you know, where they are basically trying to like it's baron stained bears, right? Where they're trying to like resurrect essentially, you know, the mouse and potentially uh anything else in the machine. But like the mandala is representational of the universe.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:45

Ah that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

Buddhists, and you know, and I just think that that is also like such a very specific thing, very specific piece of design that is absolutely intentional, yeah. That's never referenced.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:00

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

And like I don't like the the way you're describing that, like I said, I can't place it in my head, but the way you're describing that is like it feels like that, you know, the kind of like symmetrical and like it's all like symmetrical and like repeating circles and stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:13

Yeah, I thought it I literally thought it was like a tree thing. In my head, it's like a world tree.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:17

Which that is what the hallig tree is. Hallig is old English for holy. Okay. So the level in the game is the holy tree, and it is for that. It's so for him to be pulling, they're pulling from the same source, is I think what's happening. Yeah, Alex Harlan's pulling from the same thing that Miyazaki pulled.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:36

Yeah, but it's and you know we're into this thing where it's like, yeah, he's he's talking about God, he's talking about religion, yeah, but it's not it's inclusive.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

It's literally embedded in the machine, it's everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's yeah, and it's not so much like I believe in God. Yeah, he's like, This is this is a shape that people think is sacred and means something, right? It means the universe, and that's like the linchpin of them trying to like basically simulate the universe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:08

You know, the it it the entire argument we were having last episode with the idea of God, and there's this concept of like because it can be.0001 decimal of a thing off, therefore it's not God because God would have to be perfect. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

If one of my hairs is different, she's not on my head.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:32

But like just the idea that like the machine couldn't be wrong if you're saying it's God, God has to be perfect and moral, and like all of those type of concepts, and it's so funny that like Nick played Elden Ring. One of the main reasons why you didn't love that game is you're like, I don't know who I am in this, like, I'm just playing a nobody. It's not a hero's journey, it's not a narrative, it's an uncharis, like he's doing Elden Ring with this of an uncharismatic, like nobody coming into the world, finding out that like God's kind of real, it's not what you thought, and it might be weirdly flawed, and your entire life now is dealing with people that are worshiping it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:18

Yeah, that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

And trying to figure out your place in this because everyone else told you either you're a nobody or you're the one. Yeah. And you're like, I don't fucking know what you're talking about. That's like 80% of what Elden Ring is.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Do you feel like Alex is saying something about how man created God and how God isn't infallible because man created it?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:45

I think William's triggered now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

I'm staying out of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

No, I I I I think the idea of infallible and God, those aren't uh incongruent. Like God doesn't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

Well, no, I mean ever that's the whole thing, is like God is, you know, like the Pope can't be wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:01

Yeah, but like, yeah, like God just made the thing. It's not just because God's one of the belief makes everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

That's one belief. But that's that's what I'm saying, is like, do you think Alex is saying like man created God and that's why God is wrong?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:20

Maybe, but i I think so. I it because I was that's kind of what it feels like. We're talking about we're talking about many.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:27

The machine is imperfect because humanity is imperfect, and that's that's what I was saying last time.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

I was like, yeah, it if we touched it, it's it is innately flawed because we touched it. Right. It's also biased because we touched it, we're using it to do a Maya. We're not using like I said, like we're not we watched tits on it. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't stop 9-11 or anything like that. We watched tits. So, like the fact that humans are in the equation, the the soup is off, and I get I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

I get that. They can't stop 9-11. Well, yeah, post-9-11, it already happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

He stopped Amaya from getting in a wreck. I love that idea. He brought his daughter back, and it's like you could have done two things.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

She was born after 9-11. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:21

What she could still be born and 9-11 still.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:24

No, there's a world that you know what I mean. There's a world where a forest is there where 9-11 didn't happen and Amaya wasn't born.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

But that that's just so funny in me. He's like, I I got enough going on with her. I didn't everything else is what it is. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

I mean, that's that's the how come every time travel story it doesn't involve killing Hitler.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:48

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

Well, some of them do now, because that argument was posed so many times. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:54

But it's yeah, I I do think he is talking about that, but I still believe God having a flaw doesn't disprove God. God having a flaw is another we're personifying a thing that can't be personified. We're adding morals to God, and that's the whole baby with cancer thing is like we're we're we're we're projecting morality to decisions. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

That's tell me where I'm wrong, please. In your very specific belief and whatever specific view that you're saying, there are people out there who believe that God is perfect, and there are people out there who believe that moralistic things can be put on God. You are talking about yourself, so do not make definitive statements like your personal thoughts on it are what exists out in the world. There are people who believe that shit. Yeah, just the thing that bugs me. There's people who believe like the six-arm idiot. You only have authority over what you think.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

Yeah. How is this any different from any opinion you have on the God or any other stuff? It's not.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:04

But what Dave is posing to you is is a question, and you're saying no, that's not the case. He is asking under the assumption that there are people that believe that God is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

Yeah, there are people God is infallible.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:16

Like that's that's there is a large contingent of people that believe that. So when you say that no, people, God isn't perfect, and God can be infallible, what the there's you're not answering his question.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:28

So I said two things. I said, I agree with you, I think that's exactly what Alex is saying, and then I almost self-deprecatingly to buffer for this situation not to happen, for you to be pretentious over me. I'm not is I said that's I think. I'm just trying to clarify. I'm not trying to be pretentious. Let's just let's just be clear. Hold on. I said, Yeah, my brain's going another way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The story that he's telling, Dave nailed. I agree. I'm my weird brain that's gonna be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna moderate here too soon. No, no, no, I'm gonna moderate here. You gotta work. First of all, first of all, you misused the word pretentious.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:10

I did, because I didn't want to say a rude word. Nick's. I was trying not to say something rude. That's not what it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:18

Yeah, no. Nick, Nick is uh Be condescending. Uh it's not even so much condescending, but he is disagreeing with you in a heightened way.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:28

He's mad that I'm speaking with authority on a thing that literally no human should speak. Well, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

You guys are you guys are just having a uh breakdown in communication here. You're ex you're expressing you're expressing your opinion on something, yeah. What you think about it. That's fine. Nick is interpreting what you're saying as being you're making a larger blanket statement saying this is how it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

Than you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:57

Exactly. Yeah, you're you're interpreting what he's saying as being like, I'm saying this is how it is, but what he's actually saying is like this is what I think it is. This is how I'm seeing it. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

And the way you would know that I'm doing that is the time when I said the words, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:14

You guys have selective hearing with each other all the time. Yeah. I'm I'm with you. You said it, you said it, but you guys do this all the time. Every time.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

Yeah. But the the level of I fucking hate when you do that, sure. You come that energy. I'm like, what are we doing when you like how many times have we gone on here and said this? How many episodes have there been? This is a fucking idiot. This is so-and-so's the dumbest thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:43

Like, one 221 is what we're on today.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:46

If we do it, we do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

Like, let's fucking bang it out. If we talk with authority when we shouldn't, then let's talk. If we talk in sweeping generalization, so that's the thing. Why are we holding the button here?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

No, no, no. So, but what you're seeing is like, this is a thing that happens in our friend group all the time, too, where like somebody will state something and somebody will take it way too far in the opposite direction, and make the assumption that you are saying something more definitively or more aggressively or something than you actually are. And take it to a level of this is what happens, this is what happens every time our comic shouting group gets together.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:27

Well, I'm not fucking there, Dave. I don't get fucking invited. So I'm here dealing with it right now, and I'm gonna take it in disrespect.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:37

But my point is that like it happens, Nick does tend to do it a lot. And somebody's perfect, William, just like God. Somebody needs to be like, take a step back. That's not what I said. This is what I said. You heard something else. I meant it like this. Just we're all fine. Those are the moments where I call Mikey Robert. Oh, that's pretty good. I like it. You know, it's like that's pretty good when I just kind of be like, nope, calm down, Robert. That's pretty good, you know, because like we all do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:11

Yes, we all do it. We all do we all we all mishear. We it all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

Yeah, we all exaggerate somebody else uh expressing their opinion. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:21

We should uh we can drop it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

You're very sensitive to it because he's your best friend, he's been doing it for 40 years.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:26

But it's also it there it I don't know if we all do that part. I don't know if I come at you with the you're fucking talking and generalizations about a thing that you don't know about.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

No, because you're not as inherently angry as he is. This is true.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

And I know exactly what you're saying that is the triggering part. Okay, is when I'm talking about the religion and God thing, I have a different angle that does not represent what we're living with.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:59

So it sounds and it can feel as if like one, I'm kind of sort of wrong and off base, and two, well, it gives a different layer of nuance to people that are if we had to make a generalization, the generalization is that they're ignorant assholes, and then I'm bringing in this like, well, maybe not. And it's like that's you, maybe not. You're you're not the group, maybe it's easy to lump it and mix it away.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

Speaking to your to your own truth. I totally get that. Yeah, but then it's it's uh we live in a culture that is driven to absolutes, whether we like it or not. That is how a lot of these discussions happen. And we all hate absolutes. Somebody ex somebody expresses an opinion, you know. I could be like, look, man, I really like this black water bottle. And you would be like, Why don't you like the white water bottle? Why do you hate white water bottles? And it's like, that's why do you hate America, Dave? That's an extreme that people go to. It's totally unwarranted. It's just it's baked into these conversations. I don't know. Okay, here's Nick is a he's a reactionary person. I just have one point with this, but I do want Nick to do his thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:09

So I am an asshole who responds emotionally. I do. Uh but I mean, whatever. This is all well well trodden thing. I apologize, William. I'm sorry. I don't I don't mean to make you upset. I don't mean to yell at you. I don't mean to I don't mean it. Okay. You know this, you've known me for a long time. But the thing that I genuinely genuinely want to know is what is your point? What are you trying to say?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:44

With what part?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:46

Any of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:47

Damn.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:49

The fuck. Anytime I open my mouth, what's why do you think to do that?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:53

221 episodes in. Why no no? I mean, in terms of what we're arguing.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:58

Why are we here?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:59

So Dave, what are we doing? Dave poses a question. It's a selective hearing thing. I I guess I just I don't hear what you're saying as a response to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:08

He's he's no, I can't. And then it goes into something. I'll reiterate this because it just like genuinely it clears all of this up. And it's my one point I have with this is when Dave said, Do you think Alex is presenting and positing the theory that if man made God, that's why it's flawed. That makes my these are the things that get my tile and all, where I can think about this forever and I love thinking about these things. So I'm thinking of all sorts of things just from that question. Yeah. I stopped myself and I made the joke, the self-deprecating joke of I could go on and on about this. My answer to Dave was specifically, yes, I think that's exactly what Alex is doing with this show. I think, and that's where I went into the example of if we touch it, and I said the whole soup thing. I I I I second it, I repeated it. I did the William thing where I made one point two to three different times in two to three different ways, so you know what I'm saying. Then I said, but what I what I think my thoughts where my brain goes with it, and I'm adding yesterday or last episode's conversation of these are I'm now in the realm of expressing myself on what I this show makes me think about, and I'm expressing a thought because this is kind of heady philosophical mumble jumbo. So I'm in that world of if we're talking about a computer as God, that's deeply fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:44

He's taking what I said and extrapolating further on what his thoughts on those things are after agreeing and in the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:53

You guys are like describing the basis of conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:56

Well, because you yell at me as if I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:00

No, but you're you asked you asked you you specifically asked, like, what is the point? What are you saying? And the point is that he's just continuing the conversation, Nick.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:11

And and he's literally trying to express. You said you have a point. What is the fucking point? When are you gonna get to it?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:20

So so this is you are you're you're two things. One, you're so right about what you're saying right now, and two, this is so much of this podcast. Nick, by the way, how many times we talked about the J. Cole? You've never asked me what's my favorite songs, what verses do I love? How much do I love it? How does it rank compared to the rest of the song? Is Steely Dan a man? When it comes to me just getting my shit off, there is a legitimate like get to the fucking point. And if I open this with my point is, yes, Dave, I agree with you. Here's some more stuff. Everybody goes, What do we need more stuff for? Someone asked you a question, answer the question.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:08

Okay, moderate moderator Dave is coming in, and I get that, right? And you guys have different kinds of autism.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:16

Absolutely. Absolutely. They are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:19

That is all that we're seeing. Yeah, of course. The breakdown of communication. That's literally it. Like, I agree. And I know this because William and I have more similar autism than you and I do. Yes, yeah. Because like I do the same thing, where at a certain point my girlfriend tells me to stop talking. Exactly. Because she's just like, we've already you've explained this.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:42

I don't need all the details. I am a I uh I and William would I mean I think you would say yes to agree just uh because it's a funny joke, but I am a bad friend, I'm not a good friend necessarily all the time. I'm just not no no no but but you're a great friend, you're a terrible listener. Dude, all I fucking do is listen to people. I know. And but no. But I'm a narcissist. So I'm always just thinking of what's going on in my own fucking head. So yeah, it is interesting. They comprehend all I do is listen, but my comprehension, if I get fucking bored, I'm like, fuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:16

But that's what I was gonna say. And this is this is where you're you're not a bad friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

You're actually a great friend.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:22

That's what I was gonna say. One, you're not a bad friend. Two, you're not a bad listener. It is legitimately, and it's not I'll be nice to myself and say it's not my fault. And I'll be honest with you, it's not your fault that, like But it is your fault.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:36

I'm just gonna say that's why I said I'll be nice to my fault. I'm just gonna it's not your fault.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:41

Not you, not fucking you, Dave. Don't even fucking do that. William, not right now. It's not your fault, but it is, and I'm uh I am talking about a thing that you are not interested in, and I'm not talking about the thing, I'm talking about my interest and my thoughts and my ideas about one a subject you're not interested in, much less my pontificating about the subject. Yeah, so you just want it to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:17

Yeah, you just want the moment to be over so you can move on.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:21

This is the universal thing to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:22

It's a way it's a way that my brain interpreted and it brings in data. It's not I'm interested in these things, obviously. I'm interested in the show, I'm interested in this stuff, but like there's something about the delivery mechanism that it my brain struggles to connect to.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:36

But this is what I'm saying. What I'm doing isn't the equivalent of going, guys, let me tell you about a dream I had. There's no one in the world that likes hearing about someone's dream.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:46

And have you met somebody who likes hearing about people's dreams? Those people are fucking annoying. I've met one or two of them, and I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:53

But that's what I'm saying, is like that's kind of what this is the equivalent to. Is I'm just telling you my personal brain and how it connects these things. You go, I don't care about the God thing as much as you. No, but I do care what you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:06

But yeah, maybe I'm not sure. No, no, no, but I just don't frame it like that for some reason. No, I don't frame it like that. I'm gonna bring it back to exactly what moderator Dave just said. You guys have different forms of autism. Yeah, yours, his is hyper focus, yours is ADHD. Like, no, literally, and I'm not saying that as any sort of criticism. You what you just said, the delivery mechanism, I just start to check out. Yeah, that is a lack of focus.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

Well, I try, I my brain has to work to try to find a way. And if I don't hear, if I don't hear you say, oh, this is what I personally believe, if you were to say that, and because when you say, Oh, this is my favorite thing, I again I am fighting crazy narcissism. I never want to ask people questions about themselves because I hate being asked questions about myself, especially when coming from family trauma and all this kind of shit. I just don't want to fucking I don't tell my family anything, they don't know anything about me.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:04

Watch the arm gestures, stays here.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:08

Sorry, Dave, I apologize. God dang uh do the fucking uh Nick's uh letn's try out to everybody. Um so it's it's but if I heard those words, if my brain could process those words of like this is what I personally believe, and this is how it ties into this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:28

Yes, like by the way, you're welcome, Josh. I brought this on to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:33

This wasn't playing, this isn't just for Josh. He's very happy, naturally came about but I need to reframe when I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:40

I need to reframe my own thinking uh of it, and I do need to be better about asking questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:45

It's but you're very good at asking questions, so that's why I don't even think to fucking do it's not it's not your fault that your brain is not wired to absorb information in the way that William presents it sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:57

No, you're not a you're not a bad it's not your fault, but uh literally, and that's where like I don't take that personally, where like you're not a bad friend because you're not interested in me bloviating about God. You are very interested in me and you going back and forth on the plot mechanics, what characters you're gonna do, what episodes. We'll talk about Joan of Arc for an hour. Like, if it pertains to what we're focused on and it includes you, and again, what have I done?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:26

I've made it about how I'm interpreting narcissism.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:29

Because we're this is a this is part of why I'll I'll I'll say this is why part of this works is we are different on how we do this. You don't ask me questions, I ask you questions. You you come at it from a technical standpoint where I don't. I'm messy, we don't think the same, we we like the same things, but it's not for the same reasons, for sure, for sure. And that's why this works is it's not two people saying the exact same thing, the exact same rape, the exact same reason.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:00

I got this, I got this. You're Andre, your big boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:04

Accurate, so accurate.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:06

Damn, that sucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:08

Um no, yeah, I'm a weird alien.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:10

Yeah, no, but I need it doesn't suck. It doesn't suck. I need the structure. Speaker box fucking ripped. That's all I don't have enough context. All their albums are amazing, and just because I'm the weird one, but he's he's the weird one that's gonna go off and make a flute record. You're the technician.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:27

That's fair. That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:28

And you're gonna you're gonna crystallize me to the like I'm gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:32

And eventually you're gonna get to the point where it's just like Andre, I can't I go make your flute record.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:37

TI has yeah, Andre on the T.I. sorry song says, I'm sorry, I'm weird, and I fucked up the tour, and we broke up because I'm fucking weird. Like he admits, like, yeah, I need that structure. It's the Lennon McCartney thing. Yeah, it's cool. I'm playing with backwards guitars and I'm doing weird shit. But like, who do you who wrote, hey Jude? Who wrote fucking let it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:01

Sometimes you gotta write a song.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:03

Sometimes you gotta come in and go, we need a versatile chorus, you fucking weirdo. Like, stop hanging out with your screamy girl and get in here and bang out a three-minute song. And I'm like, you know what? You're right. Because if I was in charge, no one's listening to this shit. No one's fucking listening. If I'm uh steering this ship, the structure steals steers it. You have your fans, but that's color. You need the structure, and the structure is not boring, the structure just gives you a few. See now you're just pandering to me talking about structure. No, no, no. No, you're pandering at all. I'm genuine with this.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:41

Yeah, no, he's being 100% genuine. You're not a bad friend. There are just those inherent differences in how you guys present and consume information, and that's all it is. Sometimes and sometimes it breaks down.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:56

And here's a here's another one. Here's an example and take communication out of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:01

Yeah, Dave has to come on every five hours. Well, all right, Jenkins, make yourself useful.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:06

I have something about that too.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:07

If you want to catch up to his numbers, I have something about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:10

But when we went to the last concert for the band that we don't have to name, that doesn't happen if you didn't buy the tickets and schedule and set that up. Uh-huh. But once we're there, you asked me, where should we stand? Where should we sit? Uh-huh. Because you don't want to do that part. We're both awkward in in life, but in different moments. So if I went by myself, guess what? Spoiler alert, I don't fucking go. Vince Staples is my favorite rapper. I've officially bought tickets to his concerts twice and I've never seen him play. Yeah, that's both times I didn't go. So, like, I don't go without the structure. Sure. But then there's a time where you go, you know what? I need you. And then I step in and I go, What's the stand over here? Yeah. And I'm not judgmental. You're being weird about like I don't know where to stand. I'm like, dude, it's cool. I don't either. We can comfortably be weird together. Sure. And that's how that dynamic works. Yeah. That's with communication, friendship, all of that shit. We're so alike, but completely different in the weird part that we have different autism. But that's why this works. We're not the same. I don't think you like if I was like you, because you don't like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:27

I know. Oh, I'm not sure what I'm saying. And I'm the same way with that too. This podcast would be horrible if it was. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:33

That's and that's what I mean by that whole show. I don't like other people named Nick. Yeah. Trust me, they're most of them are the thing about you, Dave, is because you're here as a safety net, take it back to when Nick blew at me and did what happened. If you're not in the room when that happened, we segue quicker.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:53

Just shuts it down. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:55

Shut it down. Because how do I shut it down? I go fucking beta.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:01

You give up. Yeah, yeah. I give up.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

I'm like, no, no, no, you're right. I'm being crazy. That's fine. On to the next. Because you're here, we can talk it out and actually fight it out a little bit more than normal.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:12

For real. This triangle right here is actually, you're like a great middle ground between us because there's something. I mean, you can interpret William much more easily than I can somehow. It's very talk about Sacred Geometry.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:27

In a in a many worlds situation, I didn't become an artist, I became a therapist.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:34

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:34

Like literally, I I have more than one friend that don't know each other, so this is fully independent that refer to me as their life coach.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:43

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:44

Like I I have the gift for it, the the mediation, the listening, and the observation.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:51

Yeah, yeah. And you can read people pretty well in terms of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:53

I'm not always the best at managing it in my own life.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:56

But do as I say not as I do. Yeah, but with with other people, I I I do have a tendency to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:02

Because I think if Josh was here when this happened, the dynamic would still be I would drop it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:09

We wouldn't dig into it if Josh was here. You know what I mean? You wouldn't do that if John was here. The dynamic with John, you wouldn't blow up at me. Yeah, you would drop that too.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:19

We'll see with Civil War. Yeah, we'll see. He's coming off for Civil War. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:25

But no.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:26

Maybe I should be mean to you in front of John.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:28

We can try it.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:29

Yeah, we'll try it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:30

We can try it. I'll run right the fuck through you because I have weird confidence when I'm around John. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:35

Well you have you know the military, but you know, so the what you just said though is really interesting because there have been times on other episodes, even just last episode, where I will notice William poking at you.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:49

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:50

And you don't bite.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:52

You just you know sometimes. And it's because I'm trying to talk about talking about the Beatles when they were towards the end of their career and they were basically like not getting along and breaking up, George Harrison would bring other people into the studio. He brought Eric Clapton into play on while my guitar gently reads because he knew that when somebody else was in the room, Lennon and McCartney would be on their best base.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:18

Yeah, Dave at random, and it's not related to anything. Who's your favorite Beatle?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:22

Ringo.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:26

How that structure.

unknown 1:39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:28

But Josh Jenkins is in the room. You guys are on better behavior.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:31

Yeah, sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:33

You don't do it with me.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:35

Yeah, we just can sort through.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:38

I push you guys the opposite way. I'm like, let's open these doors.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:42

Yeah, it's because you're here. I'm like, let's let's dig into this. Because that was annoying or that upset me, as opposed to like, I'm yeah, I'm the I'm the little brother. I'm the okay, I get it. I'm annoying. That's the standard of when I come into a room is I know I'm annoying and it's it's a matter of time. Yeah, you're not you're not a bad friend because you're a narcissist. That isn't those are.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:08

No, it's the narcissism that makes you feel like you're a bad friend.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:11

Yeah. You're a bad friend for like four other things, but it's not the narcissist because that's not your fault. The other things that are your fault. Yeah. Your fashion sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:22

It's not your fault.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:23

I know. Hey, I went for a run before this, all right? I'm a very busy person. I had to squeeze it in.

unknown 1:40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:28

Alright, do you guys have any random stuff? We're knocking on two hours here. I know, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:32

Uh all of that's getting cut. We're cutting right into no no no no.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:36

That's gotta stay in. Now people are expecting it when I'm on.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:39

I know. I have to yell at you every other episode at least. People are expecting it. This is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:44

I do, I have, I have a couple of random things. However, I will say that like I actually didn't have a ton of notes.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:51

I wanted to open because I don't have random stuff. Yeah, I write a write a lot of things. I only write quotes and I have I have three lines, and that's it for this whole episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:03

Is one of them we've left your system? Because Lily throws the gun. I like that line. She says we've left your system, which is ironic because later she only exists in the system.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:15

My only thing is how do you guys feel about opening the episode with the crash? Essentially the end. They're dead on the floor and the things crash on the floor.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:24

So how do you feel about that? So the opening of this episode I thought was really interesting because it is four very specific spoilers that we haven't seen before. We've seen them crash, we've seen them on the floor. Yeah. At the beginning of this episode, we see Forrest in the machine, his daughter alive in the field, and Lily and Jamie in the gold room.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:47

Meaning like they're in the box. Yeah. Those are like the first four shots of this episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:52

And you have a shadow that splits into two. You have a shadow on the that is just a shape, and then it splits into two. And you can't tell if it's a person hugging and then letting go of the other person.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:04

Oh, see, I didn't notice that. Yeah. Oh no, now that you say the hugging thing, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:09

So I don't know what that is, but um, yeah, that's really good with them being in the gold room. It's like their wood mocks.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:16

Which I thought was really interesting. Because obviously we get flashes of their faces at the beginning of the episodes, a lot, colored lights, all this. You guys talked about all that. But I thought this was very specifically different because I was like, oh, they're just they're giving us skipping.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:31

Yeah, it's an interesting way to start. Yeah. Well, because it's it's known, it's definitive. We yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. That's it's bound to happen. I like the detail of the line from Forrest, who's explaining basically the system and how it works to Lily, and we get the little twist of the knife of like, oh yeah, tech CEOs are pieces of shit. Because he says the data of all things held, owned. So he has that speci adds owned. And it's just like you know, if you just said held, then it could be like the messiah complex of it all, but saying owned is like such a silicon valley.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:12

It's very pointed.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:13

Yeah, I was like, all right, yeah, good for you. Yeah, good for you put leaving that in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:17

You know, we talked about the the Deus thing. I thought the line of Forrest saying it was just a private joke felt a little meta just because of ex Machina, because like that's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:32

I didn't put that together.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:33

I wonder if he threw it in there just to kind of be because like I why would Forrest have a private joke about God? But that specific but specifically that that and uh Yeah, it's gotta be meta. There's no way that's the That articulation of God, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:50

That's the tech nerd um that felt very tech nerdy of like how many times people have named their whatever Wi-Fi like Skynet and stuff like that. Yeah where he's like we're being you know, we're being corny with it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:03

Oh, and when they're in the machine, it's basically all the you brought this up, you know, uh with the first episode. You're like, oh, how much of this comes back? And it's literally just the same opening scene, it's on the same shots of the city, yeah. It's the same shots of them getting to the Amaya campus once they're in the machine, same score, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:19

Yeah, yeah. When they are in the machine and Sergei and Lily are walking in, and Forrest drives past, and Lily is like freaked out, right? And Sergei's like, Oh, you've seen him like a million times. Yeah, but there's an overhang, kind of blurry in the background, and what you can see above them is just the phrase your quantum future.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:45

That's fun. That's hilarious. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:47

And I was like, that cute, absolutely intentional.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:52

Yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:53

Um that's fun. Which also brings me back to one thing that I kept a note from last time I was on. Oh, sweet. Call X where we were talking about all the seeds that were being planted. Yeah, yeah. Right before Sergei walks into devs, and there Forrest is asking him what he thinks it is, and he says quantum cell phones, which is essentially exactly what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Forrest wants to be able to talk to his dead daughter in a quantum state and through the machine.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:27

And she died because he called his wife on a cell phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Quantum cell phones.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:32

And I just like that's fun. I kept that note because I was just like, that's a joke, and it's supposed to be funny, and it is funny. Yeah. It's also exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:42

Yeah, it's more or less what they're doing. Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:44

Um, the only other note that I had was like when they're watching the projection of Lily killing Forrest and the capsule crashes, there's no sound, which is a great effect. It's gorgeous, it looks great, it's really impactful.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:01

And it's in a vacuum, so that's in a vacuum. That's a subtle way to tell us that.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:04

And then in slow motion, we see Lily crawling as she's essentially suffocating because she's in a vacuum.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:12

But the only sound we hear is this like very slow, heavy breathing.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:16

Yeah, it's the wall, it's like the walls, it's almost pulse with the light, and it's been there the whole time. It's like the machine itself is breathing.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:22

Yeah, but it is it's literally like it's a sound effect of some a person breathing. Yeah, I thought that that was really great because she's suffocating and yeah, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:32

And I think they've yeah, I I love that juxtaposition too. And yeah, they've used it throughout the whole thing to kind of imbue this humanity within the machine. The walls feel like they're breathing because of the pulsing of the lights, and you have that yeah, you you have that sound design, which of yeah, it has to be someone breathing, and they've just tweaked it a little bit or something. Yeah, it's very cool design. And yeah, I didn't catch that the first time I watched it. I was like, wait, why is she dead? I just skipped over the vacuum thing until this time. I'm like, oh yeah, she's of course dead over a fucking vacuum. They say it a couple times, but I must have missed it in 2020 when I watched it originally. Because I'm like, why is she?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:10

I missed it in 2020. Well, look, guys, 2020 was a weird time. This show came out. Not good. We were talking about it last time. This the first episode of this show came out a week before lockdown. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:23

Yeah, you know, we had weird times. We were all a little distracted for a minute. Eight weeks after that, yeah. How are you gonna remember any of this show? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:31

The more the more we talk about the show, the more I think about it, one it eight episodes perfect. I don't want 12, I don't want six.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:40

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:41

I don't there's not fat, there's not a filler, like, but that goes to my second thing. He's such a fucking good writer, dude. For this to be this tight and concise, and he wrote such a weird thing. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:56

Every episode's almost eight hours of television.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:58

It feels like the perfect eight because there's so many shows out there. Uh, the Bears coming back soon, by the way, unrelated. There's so many where you can tell they're holding their breath. You can tell they're like, I think I might have had a four-hour story. Well, that's my problem. And like, you paid me for eight. That's my problem with almost every Netflix story. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:18

Is because Netflix has the 13-episode structure, yeah. And almost every single one of those series is five episodes of content.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:27

And it was like a movie idea that they're stretching into a series.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:30

And then you get to episode seven and eight, and you're just like, okay, can we move on here? And then we're like, there's five more episodes of this, and I never felt that with Debbie.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:38

Because I I see a word because this is Alex Scarland, and up until now we were doing all his movies. I see a world where this is a movie. I see how much well, one more Kenton because it keeps the the interest of the espionage and the killing and stuff. But like, I I get that, but it just you can tell he never once thought it was a movie. He grew for sure eight hours. Yeah, this was intentional. That's what I'm saying. It's like he is we can't we gotta keep talking about how good of a writer he is because well, I mean, a great director. This is very well directed. There's so many good visual cues and sound design. Like to spearhead and control all of this the way he does, I think is great. But as a writer, this is really this is tight stuff, like it's concise and to the point, and dense, and so fucking dense.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:36

Yeah, and he knows where he knows yeah, there's something to since this is his first and only TV show so far. But the way that he starts and he ends the episodes is a real testament to how good of a writer he is because he always starts with something that's uh either visually arresting, thematically arresting, that pulls you in immediately, and then and nice kind of comic book question. Not it's not streaming cliffhangers style, exactly. But it leaves you with a question uh that you want to be answered necessarily in the next episode, which is how good comic books are struck.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:10

Seven was the only legit cliffhangers she's like, you want to go in the room, she's that's like okay, I'm going to room that's a class Netflix cliffhanger, where you're like, That's everything, alright.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:19

I gotta stream the next episode. Yeah, you know, but that's the only one.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:22

But um no, the more the more we talk about this, the more I I I really, really like this show. Yeah, I think I can see myself watching it again. Now that I have a stronger grasp on what it is, I can see myself coming back to the show. Yeah, revisiting it.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:37

Yeah, I and I think you know, like so many of these things is like I think it's totally okay to accept how impressive this is as a piece of work, and also still land on like I didn't love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:52

Yeah, definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:54

Yep, and I think Nick Nails it feel that emotionally connected to from a craft standpoint and from an intellectual standpoint, it's really impressive. Like, I I uh was talking to a a friend of mine because I was coming on, and she was like, and she was like, she was like, I don't know what Debs is, and I was like, Me either, and well no, I was like, I was like, it's it's a heady, really intellectual sci-fi show that like do is one of a kind in that like it doesn't we don't get shows like that. We've all pretty much never gotten shows like that, and at the same time, I'm just kind of like I don't know if you'd like it. Yeah, yeah, because I I don't know if like it's the kind of thing where it's like it's not casual, no, and that's kind of the ex machina difference. It's like there's a lot there in ex machina that you can take if you want, but you don't have to. There's no casual you can still experience the story without having to engage with the ideas. The casual consumption of devs ends around episode four. Yeah. And and then it's just like if you're not in, you're you're just what you're just might as well just watch something else. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:09

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:10

Because there's no casual there's there's no casual consumption um in a debate about you know quantum realities.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:21

No, and we proved that today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:25

Like it's just like you you have to either buy in to what you're consuming or you just well and I think that's a I I never had really seen a connection between devs and men until watching devs again. And I can I'm very curious to re-watch men now, which I wasn't previously until I was finishing devs. I didn't want to re-watch men, uh, but now I do because I can see how he evolves into that and just how just kind of little fucks he gives, or so it seems.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:57

Uh uh going into men. So yeah, I'm so fascinated to get into that because it does, I can see an evolution out of devs now, finally. Or I don't know, or in my head I can, but yeah, I want to see if I can spot it in men now.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:11

Um I'm very excited. I I think I'll I'll say right now I think I like men. I think I'm the only person that likes we've known this forever, William.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:19

I've told you it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:20

We still love no Lyndon was played by Kaylee Senior It's a different thing, Nick. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:29

I I think like I said, everyone loves and respects Jim Norton. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:33

I think men is really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:37

Um the the the the film, the motion picture from 2022. Men.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:45

I think it's flawed, and I don't think it's fully successful in some of the things it tries to pull off.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:51

I think post ex machina that's everything now. Maybe it felt underbaked to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:56

But I think what it's saying is like like we were saying, like I think he was just kind of like, all right, you want my opinion on this? You're gonna get it. You're not gonna like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:09

Um the movie. Well, yeah, that that's yeah, I think it's gonna pass.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:14

I think it's it does some really interesting things, and yeah, I don't know. I'll be curious to hear you guys talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:20

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited for it. Uh, friend of the pod, Antonio's gonna come on, and he said he's gonna give birth to himself live on the podcast. Beautiful. So I was like, all right, let's do it. If you're on the right episode, uh yeah, I mean we're gonna do it naked.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:36

No spoilers, we I'll I'll bring it up off mic, but there's there's like a few specific plot points that like well, I don't know. Maybe I'll wait till after you guys do it, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it, and then I can just yell at you over text message if you don't touch on some of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:50

Yeah, please do, yeah, please do. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It should be hopefully an interesting conversation because yeah, it's like a weird transition uh or transitory bridge film between devs and to his more modern work, which still out of sci-fi.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:09

Science fiction?

SPEAKER_04 1:55:12

Well, I well, yeah. I mean, there's a little bit of sci-fi in civil war, maybe, but it's it's much more grounded, not in the same way. Heady concepts of science fiction, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:24

We're out of hearts, we're out of hearts. Yeah, we're done talking about tech. Yes, yeah, very true, very true. The tech era of Alex Scarland is uh, I think we're done.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:34

Yeah, and that's so yeah, and then whatever, we can cut it off on there. But Man and Elden Ring is kind of an interesting thing, but you can cut that out. We're getting in nature, but yeah, let's go outside. Thank you for coming on, Dave. Thank you for being our therapist. William will pay you your rate. Uh and cheek kiss. You're welcome. There you go. You're welcome. I'm happy to. And yeah, we'll hope you come back on soon. But yeah, please join us next week. Uh, thanks to Dave, as always. Uh, we'll be back. Love you guys. Love you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:02

Love you.