SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to season 10 of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, the podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer and director Alex Garland. Alex Garland. I'm Nick who loves Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

And I'm William. I also love Alex Garland. And today we're going to talk about episode five of his series devs. Six. Hold on. Can I do my math? Four, five. Then it's six. You're right. Yep. Episode six. Of devs. Six of eight.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Six, seven.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Written and directed. Six, seven. FX. That's all the kids are saying. Uh how's it going today, William? We're on top fucking form so far.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Oh yeah. I I love that when we screw the uh the intro up now, we just go with it. You're not like just get on with it. It's more fun. Yeah. I'm okay. Uh work was busy Monday, Tuesday. Today's Wednesday, and then I'm off Thursday, Friday.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So yeah, getting your AC installed, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, get my AC tomorrow. Right on time. These last couple of days have been uh pretty hot. But work is just playing catch up because a lot of meetings. So I've been out of office a lot Monday, Tuesday. So today was a lot of catch up, which is good. I think uh must be hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Mustard. Yeah, I don't know, trying.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I got it. Stretching. Yeah, I'm bad with puns. Not good at puns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

You're not very puny. I'm not puny, but not puny. Damn it. This is a horrible episode so far, which I knew was gonna happen. Stop it over because I thought I think uh skipping over whatever you were just talking. We'll get back to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I I literally have nothing and I'm scrambling to say something other than anything depression, anything ideation. Like I'm like the work is a job. No eight hours a day.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I think this episode's gonna suck because I think the previous episode was actually one of our better episodes. You think we actually got pretty real in some good stuff. Uh I don't know. I it felt good to me. I hope the audience and our listenership feels the same.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

But I think they like when you talk more. I've found uh there's been a few when you've talked about like your worry of your art and making the comic, and then people were like, Hey, that was that was a really good episode. Oh, really? And yesterday, I think last episode you did a good amount of talking. So yeah, last one was good. It had a good flow too. I think we had a it wasn't a forced flow, it just felt like a good conversation that we had, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

I think, uh at least on the personal level, who knows about the devs level, but I enjoyed that. Me too. Yeah, I did like it. But um, yeah, so I think this episode's gonna be shit. Yeah, but we can't do consistency. No, absolutely not. And I'm in a terrible mood. Are you? Yeah, I don't know. But I've I've have been wanting to talk about it. I've been so fucking grumpy for the past week, and I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

When you say grumpy, what do you mean like short-tempered?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Uh just in a shit mood, you know what I mean? Just uh yeah, easily annoyed, just baseline simmering about how much shit I have to do. Yeah, which I think that's part of the problem. It's just I feel like I'm so fucking busy, and instead of like being overwhelmed, like oh, like with worry or something like that, I'm just mad. Yeah, because I have so much shit to do. And this is kind of and maybe I don't know, maybe it could be an expectation of this is supposed to be like a slow period, and it's also the last few weeks of of the school year, so I'm just so fucking ready for that to be over. And yeah, yeah, I'm like cracking into some of the fun parts of working on the comic in terms of like the art's done, which I talked about last week, and we're just waiting on colors from JP, which he's been doing a couple pages a week, which is JP Morgan or JP Make Dade? Uh make Dade. Yeah, he's moonlighting as a color uh colorist on comic books now. We might talk about him later. Okay, all right. Um, and it's kind of slow on my end. Like we're drip, we're we have things that we're doing trying to fucking build the audience on Reddit, and you know, it's all this fucking annoying stuff that I have to do. But the business end of uh getting your name out and yeah, which and this isn't even a it's a it's a slower period with that kind of thing, but like it's still kind of tedious, and so I'm getting into some of the fun part where I'm actually writing again of I'm mapping out volume two. Yeah, the it's technically gonna be part three, but yeah, we're we're tinkering with what we're gonna do with these first two parts, whatever. But you guys will be the first to know once we make a decision. But it's basically like the third issue because I wrote a giant single issue and we're splitting it into two, so it's technically two parts. So I'm working on the the next part, which I won't have to necessarily script until uh this fall, or no, probably this winter, even probably like November, December. I'll I have to start scripting it. But with the way that my brain works, you know, I I gotta know the whole thing. So I'm mapping out 10 issues, which is like the entire series. So I've been rereading some some stuff, looking for structure ideas, and because I know what's gonna happen, but again, it's like what's the rhythm of it? Yeah, you know, what are the ups and downs, issue by issue? The rhythm's gotta get you. Exactly. So so that's been fun rereading stuff and you know, looking at signposts and these kind of things and being like, oh, could this work for my story and blah blah blah blah blah. So that it's fun part and figuring out stuff with the characters and how the pieces fit. So it's it's been that's been fun, but at the same time, I'm like, it's that thing of I have so much other stuff going on just in in life, and then I'm like, fuck man, but uh, I wish I could just focus on this thing, but it's just that thing of you're just an adult and you have so much shit to do. Yeah. So maybe that's where some of the grumpiness is is stemming from. Because I have like no less than five yard projects to work on um in the next couple months, and you know, I mean, just general being a parent, trying to be a good parent, trying to be a good husband, which I mean, who fucking knows how any of that shit's going. You know what I mean? Not be a fucking narcissist and just be in my head at all times, be present, and then all the little fucking hobby bullshit that I have.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Um things you do to make yourself feel good and happy. Yeah, and then you know, that bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Well, I mean, I don't fucking know. It's you know, it just feels all like a distraction from writing or something, you know. Yeah, but it's like no, but then if I fall behind on organizing stuff, then I get annoyed, and you know, so it's like just trying to balance all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

How do you feel about the cleanliness and organization of your computer room we're in right now?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

It's it's okay, it's not as bad as it was, but it's getting there for you. Exactly, but it's it's starting to get there. And yeah, I just need time to take the 3D printer apart. I'm working on the Pokemon card organization. I gotta fucking get through my reading list this summer. Gotta read The Golf. Yep, yeah. Which I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, looking forward to a couple of things.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

I guess the it looks like the new volumes of the Ethan Van Skever comic, the RoboFrog thing he writes. Nick said he was on a newsletter for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Such a niche. Brilliant. I love that. Yeah, that's for you and Dave only. Yeah, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Well, I don't know. I've maybe all you guys, all you fucking comic nerds know what that is. That's so fucking funny.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Uh what a poll. Uh yeah. Uh that's great. So yeah, I just I have so much to do, and and then I'm just so mad about it's getting hot, and every time it gets hot, then I get pissed off about the brother lack of insulation in my house, and we gotta do some stuff about that with the roof, and I gotta get some quotes for some stuff, and then I gotta maybe DIY some stuff and figure out D I E some stuff. I don't know what that is. Like die? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, sure. Trying, man. Or D I, did you say D-I-E? D I. Okay, good. Yeah, I heard D Y E, like like dying. So that was that's on me. My bad. That's on Kai. I was just thinking, I was like, tie dime, that's each. Yeah, my bad. And then, you know, we have a couple summer trips planned. Really?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

I mean, we're we're gonna be getting out of town at the end, in between like right at the end of June and into July. We're gonna be gone for like 10 days or something like that up in the Pacific Northwest, uh, seafront of the pod gram, and uh our other family up there. And then I'm all I'm thinking is just like, God, I'm gonna have so much to do, even while I'm on vacation. In terms of like, that's literally when the book is gonna be finalizing, all this stuff before we have to send it off to the printers and all this stuff. So I have to uh have that internal battle with myself of like, no, I'm I'm and my wife, you know, my wife, whatever. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, I definitely need to DIE some stuff. Uh I love you hated that before you were even done with it. You're like, or whatever the fuck that was. Um gives a shit about anything. I just did a Borend 2026. Literate like a twenty-five yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Only 25, if not. It's gotta be 2001, 2002, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

No, I think it's uh I forgot what year we were in school because no, it was oh three? It was later. Uh but I mean he's been doing it for that.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

No, the movie is 2005.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah, the movie is later, but yeah, he's yeah, he's the LEG show.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, it's 25 years ago. Booya Booya Kasha. Fuck. I don't even remember what I was saying. Uh oh yeah, Kira knows how I am. Yeah, you're white in terms of and I know how I'm this way, but I still can't stop myself from feeling it. Haven't gotten to that point of development yet. But I always dread on leaving and doing anything. Yeah. Like getting out of town, like, ah fuck, it's gonna be such a hassle. Blah blah blah. I'm always just thinking about that. But then once we go, it's always a good time, you know. And I it's always nice to get out and just mix it up.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

See cool people, eat cool food.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's always it's always fun.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Do you guys go see sites? Are you uh go see stuff person?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Not up there, no. When we go to cities we haven't been to, sure. But up there we've been there a bunch.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah, you've done tours in Seattle and stuff before, I think. You told me you didn't tour.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

We looked around the Space Needle and museums, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Didn't you see the underground stuff? Was that you?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Are you sure?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

I don't know. You'd have to ask Kira. But I always end up having a good time, so you know that's just kind of how my brain works. I'm already just being like, God damn it, I'm gonna I have so much fucking stuff to do. And the annoying thing about it's it's nice because work does slow down, and I can, you know, got a bunch a lot of things to do at work, but it's slows down. But then I'm like, well, I only have like seven weekends and two of those are already gone.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Yeah, you can't count like that. Yeah, it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

It and which is that's fine. I'm gonna be having a good time with the trip, but that's then stuff I can't get done here. And then there's still so many fucking things to do. And a lot of these things aren't things that I can get done in a weekend. Some of them are, and then it's just gonna be hot as fuck, uh, which cuts into how much time you can spend outside and do that kind of work. And yeah, it's just you know, the typical fucking snowballing, spiraling.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, no, I do that a lot. Or I I I used to do that a lot when I had more going on in life.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Yeah, but yeah, I mean, it's just really making me grumpy. I don't know. I just feel spread thin. I feel it's the Bilbo thing of too much bread on a piece of toast. Yeah, cheeks are spread. Um I mean, yeah, it just depends, I guess, the scenario. But yeah, I'm just fucking over it. And yeah, I want the school year to be over. And yeah, but I should everything to be over. I should be having I should be having a good time in terms of I have some ideas for you, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Let me tell you about some ideations I've done. Done some some thinking lately. Uh I think I figured this all out. To be honest, I think I solved everything.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And yeah, yeah, I just I um there's too much going on. My brain, and it's but it's hard to figure out what to focus on too, because then I'm like working out, I'm doing these things, training, yeah, starting to train for a 10k, and then I'm reading like I read a little bit of a book before I go to bed, and I'm listening to an audiobook at the same time, and I'm like trying to read comics, like my brain just feels oversaturated and it's it's dying.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

So it's what do you do when when you get cranky? What brings you down? What balances you out?

SPEAKER_01 13:05

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

You don't really have anything, just zoning out.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

I don't fucking but then I get mad at myself because I'm you know doing something. I don't know. No idea. Video games, do they help kind of clear your head a bit? Yeah, I mean they're a good way to relax for sure. But no, even yeah, like now I mean when when we've been fucking playing Resident Evil with the boys, uh, which we just beat Resident Evil 9 Requiem. I've been fucking doing stuff. Yeah, you've been busy, you know. Elvis, yeah. What that what a fucking shit show. So I don't know. Yeah, just I don't know what to do. There's too much stuff to do. Yeah, I don't want to half ass any of it. I want a whole ass it. What's that from? I don't know. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

But spread sheets.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I al I know I always say that I'm tired, but I don't know if I'm I'm I just feel fucking drained. I feel spread too thin and I'm angry about it. So that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

But yeah, so I I don't I don't I don't being yeah, no, being being cranky and overwhelmed with like tasks and time is I think that's real. I think that's fairly common too. Even though everything you name are things you you want to do, not things that are always forced upon you. The 10K, the working out, the reading books and comic books, and the poke like none most of the things you listed are by choice. Yeah. There's very few where it's like, no, I actually have to and I can't not do it. Yeah. So it, I mean, it doesn't change the feeling, but I think the feeling's something else always. Yeah. It's you know, sometimes I would get into that feeling, and I think a little bit of it was I want like I want attention, like I want something for like I want somebody to give me a thing because I can list. I'm doing this for you, I'm doing this for this person, I'm doing this because I have to what's coming to me. I'm stretching myself out for all of these things. I want something coming my way. I want a gift or prize for my hard work or efforts. Like it, it it starts feeling like I'm just I'm I'm I'm stuck in the doing phase without any recognition. I think sometimes I would get into that emotional headspace sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

It doesn't work that way. Being cranky about something doesn't uh enable someone to go, oh yeah, I I should uh I should jerk you off right now, emotionally or physically. Yeah. Because you've earned it. It's like, no, that's not how that works.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, and with me, it's I think it's almost the opposite where I'm not doing enough for other people, I'm probably doing too much for myself. And it makes me annoyed that I'm so selfish or something, you know? Yeah. It could be that. Because it's like, oh, I should be living in the moment or something, and I'm just fucking cranking away at these fucking ideas or ruminating on what I need to do, or thinking about like, oh yeah, shit. What am I gonna do about the yard and blah blah just like shut the fuck up, brain?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

For fuck's sake. Tell the people in your life to get more interesting. They're so boring, you gotta go into your own head.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

No, I'm just emotionally avoidant.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

What? Yeah, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, I know. I don't know. I'll talk about it in therapy, you know. Where's that come from? Uh that's a good question. How's that feel? Being emotionally avoidant? I'd rather not do that. Does it work? Does it work for you?

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Clearly. I listened to what's that guy who did the Blackberry Blackberry Marmalade, the Vince Staples blue song? To Vince Staples' first album. No, not really. Summertime 06? Nope. I listened to Vince Staples' previous record that I had listened to before the other day. Dark Times. Dark Times. Good record.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Why did you say his first and you meant his most recent? I'm so funny. No, dude.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Seriously, my brain is so fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

The first one he did, you know, last year.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Well, I couldn't think of his name. Yeah. I could think of the newest song. And I did listen to that first EP, right? Two weeks ago. Help and wait. And then, or last week, and then I was like, I was trying to put it together. So yeah, my and my my brain is so fucked. I've been going to like the wrong classrooms to pick up computers to repair and in front of everyone, just being like, oh, is this room? Embarrassing yourself from the cloud. So I'm like, hey, is this person in there? They're like, no. I'm like, is this room this? They're like, no. Yeah. I'm like, okay, walk away.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Dude, it's you just walk into the wrong room and a kid does a TikTok dance in front of you and then does six seven. You're like, oh no. You just go sh take a shit and go home. Um, but yes, darkness reigns was Dark Times, Darkness Raigns, Cradle of Filth, featuring Vince Staples.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

That Vince Staples record is very fun.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Which is the first one you've heard of his. Yes. Because it came out.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

And when I was re-listening to it, uh did so on a run, and I was like, oh yeah, shit. I my brain remembers a lot of these hooks. Could I pull up any of them now? Absolutely not. But I thought that that was very good.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

It's a really good one.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

So I listened to that, been listening to Charlie XCX, Wuthering Heights, Wetherington. Oh yeah, it's great. It's really good. Yeah, I love that record. And listening to some metric uh still, their new record. But yeah, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go back and re-listen to some some Vince Staples. And yeah, it was good stuff. I liked it. Why I brought that up, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Just do uh just to throw if if you're jumping around, you're not going in any order, give the the self-titled one. Okay. It's another, it's uh short, maybe my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

That's a good album. It's one of my favorites of his.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Oh yeah, 2021. Yep. And yeah, 10 songs, 22 minutes, yes, sir. And a skit. Okay. Well, no, I'm not listening to it then.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, it's like 40 seconds of a voicemail from his mom. It's like five minutes. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like it's it's so short. But that's what I'm saying, is like that short a time frame with thematic elements in songs. Yeah, he's he's to the point. Nice. Yeah, I'll I'll check it out for sure.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

What uh what have you been imbibing?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

I watched the roast of Kevin Hart on Netflix. I watched it live on Sunday. How was that?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

It was interesting. I heard Che was making fun of all just the white comedians being racist, and that's all they were doing.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I I I I love Michael Che. I've always loved Michael Che. Uh, I learned about him a real long time ago when he was an up and coming before he got Starnet Live. Uh-huh. He was like really new to stand up, and I do think it was Netflix came to him and was like, We're ready to give you a special. And it was the first time I've ever heard the story. Che said no. He's like, I'm not ready. My stuff's not good enough yet. I know I need a few more years before I get there. And I was just like, Oh shit, this guy's built different. Like his his mental how he views this stuff is very different. Then he gets R Saturday alive, and now he's a superstar. I I love him. I think he's uh he's one of the best with what he does. But yeah, he was definitely shitting on it. Whereas this idea of like, it should be a black roast, it's Kevin Hart, and most of the writing staff was white. Shout out Nick Mullen, shout out Zach Amiko, shout out JP McDade, Mike Lawrence. But it he's like, eh, it's just weird. It it is, and I get that. When I saw the Dais, I saw that I thought it was a very weird Dais. My favorite thing about the Dais though is there is Big J Oakerson on there, who he's not a big well-known guy, he's not big name, but he came up with Kevin Hart. Yeah, they they did the Philly circuit as nobody's, yeah. So he was there at the beginning, and they they're both, you know, doing their own thing at different levels, but I was like, that's cool. They included him. That a hundred million percent comes from Shane Gillis' hosting. Yeah, and Big J's one of the guys that put Shane on. So I thought that was cool. I thought Shane did okay at hosting. It's he has a aloof, almost lazy energy. Yeah. So for him to host is it's a weird energy. I don't know why people pick him to host. Yeah, he's not great at it. He he comes in the Norm McDonald, it's almost anti hosting. Like he's purposely being like, I don't know, what do you want from me? Exactly. You know, it's very uh self aware.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

I don't know if that's the energy apparently they like it. He's hosted the SBs, he's done this, so people do like it. I like him. Yeah. But it it's a definite, different energy for sure. I thought that was interesting. Almost everybody did really, really well. Nice. My biggest thing that I I can't stop thinking about, and I have to say, is Regina Hall is 56 years old. Okay. I'd give my life for Regina Hall. She is stunning. She is so beautiful, cool as hell. And she was the one person up there that literally no one had anything, no jokes for. They were just like, I don't know. She's the coolest, hottest person ever, and no one made fun of her. She's yeah, she's royalty. Yeah. And she brought out Cat Williams, which my understanding is no one knew he was gonna be there. Oh, yeah. Because he legitimately hates Kevin Hart. Interesting. It was very funny. I thought it was good. And then The Rock came out, which also no one knew about. It's a big surprise. The rock was drunk. Uh-huh. And you can tell when he's doing the written material and then when he's ad-libbing.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Problem is, is if Cat William and a lot of people's critique of Kevin Hart is you kind of you play a little too much in front of white people the way you shouldn't, as a black man in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It's that whole you would wear a dress sort of thing. You would emasculate yourself. You would, you know, yeah, there's certain racially charged words I'm not using right now, but there is a bit of there's something there where they're like, you're not supposed to do that for the white man. Sure. It is weird that The Rock made a ton of really long oversated welcome, awkward jokes about fucking his wife, and like he told Kevin to sit on his lap and to like suck his nipple, like like you know, latch like a baby, or like suck my dick. And he's like, Don't worry, I'll get it from your wife later. And it was a lot because he's drunk. You could tell he was like trying to riff and be silly, but it like I'm not kidding, it very much overstayed its welcome, and it does turn into that. Like, there's not a lot of black comics that would allow that at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

They would just shut him down.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

You you you just I mean, Will Smith uh slapped Chris Rock for less. So it is it is a weird energy that Kevin went with that he droled with the punches and kind of allowed it. It's just it was very awkward, and it it is kind of, I think a lot of people do have a point with Kevin Hart. And then yeah, I I think it also it shows there is a very big difference from black comedy and white comedy, and that's what uh Michael Che was making the joke about is a black comic will go up and make fun of Kevin Hart's shoes or you know, uh style or fashion or slang or how he talks or things like that. And then a lot of the white comics will go up and just make fun of like you're you're black, yeah. You're you're dark.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

That's the point is you know, like it's they always go the race route instead of they're gonna go there, but also from an outside perspective.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, it's not saying I'm saying you shouldn't or can't or anything like that. Uh Big J, I think, had some of my favorite jokes about that, where he said the one lady was uh so black if she stood against a brick wall, the roadrunner could uh go through her. And they bought uh they brought uh Draymond Green to white balance the cameras because of how black she was. Like, I think those are funny, silly jokes, but then someone can go up and then just go almost the entire joke is you're black and it's kind of gross, or you're just black and that's dumb. Like that's the joke. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. There is a time and place for people like Tony Hinchcliffe or Chelsea Handler, and I'm like, I don't think this was it. Uh they didn't come up in black rooms, yeah, like Big J did. So he knows how to work that uh that audience and that culture and that crowd as the outsider, he knows how to fit there. And I just I I yeah, it was a weird dais for Kevin Hart. I thought it was very weird, but I thought it was funny. There's some really good jokes that got off. Yeah, a lot of them did a good Shane pointed out Chelsea Handler. He's like, Yeah, you literally just hung out with Estein like at a personal dinner, and he called her a Zionist, and like he even called Tony Hinchcliffe out of like you guys keep saying I'm racist. He actually believes the things he says, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's different, yeah. And so yeah, that there was some stuff that I like. They did uh address a lot of things. I had fun, it was long, but it I can't not be that hipster guy to say it is cool to see on Netflix Big Jay Ogerson up there on one of the biggest roasts they've ever done under the Tom Brady one, and then also to see a written by credit for Nick Mullen. Yeah, like that is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, you know, you're glad your boy's getting work.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, there's a guy I've you know, I've been following him, a fan of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

So it is cool. I saw a couple clips on Instagram, you know, on Reels or something like that. And yeah, I saw one Big J bit, which him wearing glasses. I hope someone made fun of him for wearing the glasses. They didn't.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I mean, and all his other podcasts they do.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Okay, yeah. They should because I'm looking at those, I was like, guys, someone's that's the thing, no one knows who he is, so no one had jokes for him except she. Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah. But that was funny. And I saw Kevin Hart make a joke about The Rock looking like a ninja turtle without a shell. So that's fucking great. That's such a good observation. Uh but yeah, I need to watch some longer clips or something because I've literally only seen like 30 seconds snippets.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

I I think it's worth it. Uh Tayana Taylor came out in Bond, and that was awkward. Lizzo did okay. Pete Davidson did pretty good. I don't think Tony Hinchcliffe had a good set. Yeah, he's not. I I get it. I know what he does. It's not my preferred way to do roasting and stuff. He's not, you know, he's not someone that when he's up there, I'm like, oh hell yeah, this is gonna be the best set. I don't that's not what he is to me. So I d I don't really like him all that much. I think he's better served as a side dressing. I mean, his podcast that is super popular, like you gotta think about it. It's him, a guy with a soundboard, a live band, two guests, and then a random person coming up every time. It's not a show focused on him. There's so many bells and whistles he's got to play off of everybody. Exactly. If it's him up there doing his thing, I'm like, no, that's not that good. None of your specials are good, none of your sets you've posted are good, you're not actually a good stand-up. Yeah. And even from your show, none of the best, most popular bits come from you either. Yeah, it's from the guest dynamics and stuff. So yeah, it's he's he's never been a he's just a host, basically. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think he is good at that. But yeah, when he goes up to roast and it's just him for whatever, three to five minutes. I'm like, eh, it's okay. I I you you didn't have that many great uh lines. Everyone else did better than you. And Shane, I think, had the the the craziest joke. He got off the craziest one. I think everyone tried to get a crazy one off, but yeah, no, I th I thought it was fun. Feels good to laugh, guys.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Uh yeah, which I need to catch up on a couple specials. I want to watch Patton Oswalt's, which is coming out. Yeah, I've always loved Patton. How's Mark Norman's on on Netflix? I missed that. I didn't watch his new one. Yeah, I missed it too. Yeah, I need to watch that.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, I've been off a few. I think the honestly the last special I watched was Jordan Jensen's probably.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

And I still haven't watched Jordan's. I need to watch Jordan's.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

I liked it. I like her. She's a crazy lady. Yeah, me too. Another one. I always get uh a soft button or affinity when I see people coming up, like before they hit it.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

So when they put a special out that I that I think is quality, I I get very excited. Like I'm rooting for them. So when they make a break and it feels appropriate, I'm like, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah. I think uh I gotta catch up this summer on a couple of those.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I have a feeling this might be Dan's he's doing a Netflix special. Dan Soder.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Well, his dude, his for real. His YouTube one is YouTube one is one of the best specials I've seen in the past five years. He's that special's fucking amazing.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

And that's been kind of the in the lower uh because he's kind of a mid-tier New York guy. He's always been the name of uh like so many people have said is like when he wants to, he's gonna blow up. He's per he purposely doesn't want to. Yeah. When he wants to, he's he's gonna let it be known. And I think yeah, now he's doing a Netflix one. Hopefully, yeah, hopefully it'll be good. Because yeah, that YouTube special is so fucking good.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Now there's a there is a lot of good comedy. I've taken a break from a lot of the podcasts lately.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

There's hasn't been good guests. And I'm just for something where I'm just like, yeah, that's why I'm listening to audiobooks.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, certain conversation. I'm like, I'm not interested hearing your take on some of this. Exactly. So yeah, I've I've definitely uh done that. Uh can't go without saying Friday is uh the Drake album, Iceman. Very much anticipated. Iceman, like Val like Top Gun, Val Kilmer. Well, that's always the joke of it, is there's the Kalinsky uh Boston uh hitman for the mob. Sure. Iceman.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

There's Val Kilmer, badass and Top Gun. But then there's also uh X-Men, Bobby Drake, who I think I mean, technically he's omega level, so he's extremely powerful. Also, technically, uh sexuality gets a little bit I think he came out a couple years ago, which is always the funny joke of you know, it's also his name, Drake. Uh-huh. And people are just like, you just can't ever Yeah, he's not self-aware enough. You can't nail it. You can never nail it. Because it is funny to think Drake being like, I'm naming it after the hitman, and they go, You mean the gay X-Men character?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Like, so what I meant. Stop it. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

But yeah. Uh I'm I I don't love Drake albums. I think he has two really good albums, and then he has a million great songs.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

I am assuming this will be in the same vein of the last five mediocre albums he's put out. I couldn't I don't see losing a battle really igniting him to be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna put my best stuff out. Yeah. Because I don't think it's been a choice. I know the the narrative is he's had contract issues and he's trying to get out of his really horrible contract he's in. That's why he's mediocre. And that's why all his albums have been mediocre. He's like, I'm not giving you my best shit. Uh I don't believe that. I don't believe he's been holding his best stuff for I would say seven to eight years now. Yeah. I just don't believe it. No. If there's ever a time for him to put out his best work, it is after Kendrick Lamar kicked your ass on the Super Bowl stage and won 48 Grammys for one song. This would be the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

No, but he wants instead he walks around with the fake fucking bullets and the smoke coming out. It's just like, oh, so you're doing it to yourself because you're a fucking loser. Yeah, yeah. You don't understand irony because you're an idiot.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

I don't I don't I don't anticipate this album being uh the his best or even all that great. Yeah. But you'll have to let us know. I'll listen. Yeah, I'll listen. It would be very funny if you also listen to this one and just you never J. Cole. You're just like, he's the one you're like, can't do it. Ah, sure. I'll listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Just to annoy you for sure. It would be funny. No, it's gonna be too long, and I'd just gonna I'm not gonna want to listen to it, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Well, that's how I feel, but I'll do it just because the social experiment of what he gotta know what's like after losing a battle. No, for sure. I'm interested, but I'm not excited in any way whatsoever. Again, Vin Staples, June 5th. I'm very excited. So I'm still running through Mad Men. I'm on the last stretch. I think I got like four to go. So I'll probably finish it tonight or tomorrow. Sick. Um I don't know, man. It's tough, it's really tough. I know I'm a very, very bad culprit of recency bias. Sure. But I'm watching the show, I'm like, this might be the best thing ever. This might be it's incredible. I'm in love with so much of what they're doing, and I wanted to ask you because I don't know. There's another thing I don't know about you. I can see you go both ways on this, like you do in sexuality and so many other things. Yeah, how do you feel about surrealism in uh your art when it's added in? Batman has a lot of surrealism, there's a lot of playing, like uh, you know, uh spoiler, but Cooper just died and he sings a song to Don Draper.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah, I mean he's gone. I yeah, I'm okay with it. When it makes sense for the characters or it makes sense for the show or whatever medium it's in, whatever story it's in, if it makes sense, I'm all for it. Yeah, surreal surrealism for the sake of it is dumb, but you don't see that that much.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, I don't have and I know exactly what you mean. I couldn't name an example exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

So it's like so I yeah, I'm I'm I'm fine with that actually. And I think it works in something like Mad Men, where I I mean, in a way it provides the with that that specifically some kind of emotional catharsis, kind of for the character for Don, but also kind of for the whole show, you know, for the audience of like nah that this is his grand exit, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

It's the same with the Sopranos, like these are two shows that are very much in the headspace and a lot of psychology, mental, bonds, subjective, so it makes sense to do surrealist things to get across these ideas, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

So yeah, I'm I'm totally down with that. Um, if it fits into the theme, and I think with TV, I think it can work well because it's like you're trying to fucking mix it up and you can try stuff and be like, oh no, I like this idea, let's see how it flies, you know, because we have a bunch of fucking episodes. So I think it's cool to kind of experiment with that. But yeah, I don't think people use it willy-nilly necessarily because I don't think it's easy to do, and I don't think people necessarily default to that. Generally, it takes a special type of artist to really specialize in surrealism and hone in on it because it is just fucking gibberish, usually, you know. Um, I mean, we don't need to name names and disparage filmmakers and stuff that our our friends like, but yeah, a lot of a lot of uh surrealist like films and stuff like that. I'm just like, shut the foo fuck is not for me.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I'll cut it out, but what are you referencing?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

No, like the fuck holy mountain and all that kind of shit. You know what I mean? I mean, which and sometimes these films you have fun techniques and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

I do think Holy Mountain's cool, but it is uh it's up its ass.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

No, that's what I mean. It's uh it's yeah, they use oftentimes they use cool techniques, but there's pretension that comes with it, you know what I mean? And that that I don't really like. And they're like, oh, and it becomes more about art, which is about that person's expression, not necessarily trying to tell a story or something like that. And so, you know, I always lean towards story, but yeah. Yeah, but generally, I think it's yeah, it's I mean it's just another tool, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

The other idea that I like is Mad Men, Sopranos, Atlanta, Louie. These are shows that use surrealism, they understand the humor of it.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Yeah, absurd. It's like that borderline absurdity. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

They don't lean into the pretension, yeah, they know it's there. You're using surrealism to say something that people will deem pretentious. You're using a metaphor, you're talking about psychology or you know, uh mental ideas. Sure. They know that, so they go, Well, we're gonna be a little funny with it. Because you gotta be self-roll your eyes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it works best a lot of times like that. Yeah, and then you go to Holy Mountain, and it's not, it's I need you to take the surrealism maybe a little serious. Yeah, Large Antrier, I think, does the same thing. These are serious guys that go, isn't this crazy? Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I don't know. I it's my mind, yeah, exactly. Fucking stick and twist it on the fucking yoker. So yeah, I I do think uh I always like when people understand the like, yeah, I don't know, Dolly did like a Skittles commercial, yeah. Like there is an absurdity to it, then there's the other layer under it. But you want to keep the subtext sub.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah. That's how it works best. And I I I appreciate people that know that about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah, and it's it's one of those tools to me that when used well, it does just that, like it it comments and solidifies the how odd the human experience is, right? Our subjective experience, and a lot of times these are subjective moments that characters in the stories are going through. And uh yeah, it it is just like, yeah, this is fucking weird, but that's how life is, that's how human beings are. Uh, we're often unreliable narrators almost all the time. So yeah, I I I really I like that about it because when it's done well and it it it says something about the character, something about the situation in the story, uh, it's like, oh yeah, that's cool. I like I like it. Yeah, I mean, Devs does it too. I mean, in terms of some of the filmmaking choices, it's like, what are the fuck? Why are these lights on these people's faces? Oh, maybe they're staring at this, but really it's just to set the mood. It's odd, it's supposed to unsettle us, it's not supposed to make logical sense.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

So, surrealism, absurd, illogical sense, Nick. How do you feel the yoker? We gotta talk about the yoker. How do you feel about the and I mean this honestly, the concept of chaos, and I'm being so sincere right now. I'm thinking chaos. Is it like how do you feel about it as parts of nature in the world? And I mean this honestly.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

We were so spot on about this as the dumbest.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

I told you is there such a thing as legitimate chaos?

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Uh yeah, good question. I'm sure there is there, I'm sure there's a scientific definition of chaos, right? When you're talking about particles and all this kind of stuff, speaking of devs. Um This is all about devs.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

We're in we're in transition mode.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

We're in devs world now. So I know that there's some kind of empirical definition of what chaos is. I don't know what that is. And when I think of chaos, I think of the the the human-made concept of oh things are crazy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And oh chaos, yeah, yeah, your idol. Um yeah, and it's always put into the lens of the Joker, of course. Yeah, burning money and which is just it's it's just an uh it's a stand-in for anarchy, right? Or whatever. Disorder, yeah, uh toxicity. Which when you grab a brush and put a little makeup, uh That's their other song. Oh sorry, shut BY O B. It's just another definition that we try to make sense of the world.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Does it feel like it's real? Like in by real, I mean just you, service level, not thinking about this at all today, just thinking right now, like, does it actually feel like things are chaotic in true, honest form? No, I don't think so. My struggle is watching this show is presenting determinism.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Okay, which yeah, and I we gotta clarify uh some definitions too.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

I did a little bit of research, but with a show by a smart, talented writer discussing a worldview in this vacuum. I'm dumb where I go, well, yeah, obviously. This makes the most sense. The thing you're telling me right now is the thing that makes the most sense. The idea that cause and effect is everything. I'm like, yeah, you're you're making this where I go, well, yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

The way that she's explaining what Debbie's about.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I'm um all the way on board with what this show for six episodes has been presenting to me. So now I'm in the headspace of like, well, then nothing's chaos. Everything has a reason why it was what it is, and blah blah blah. And then I'm like, so is chaos just bullshit? You know what I mean? Like I start going down those type of thought processes of yeah, I yes, I think it is bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

That's where I get because really I just I mean, all of the stuff there is the the like I said, there's probably some kind of scientific definition that lose the particles and all this kind of shit. Well, and maybe not even chaos theory, I don't know. But but in terms of like things that happen in nature, they're just they are a series of events. Yeah, and they can be seen as chaotic, uh, entropy can be seen as chaotic, right? You know. But when it comes to human beings and human behavior, it's just people making choices. And whether those choices are predetermined or not, that's not even, you know, I guess we're we're grazing upon that or talk and they're talking about that in depth. But it's It's whether they're determined or not, they're choices that people have made that is has cause and effects, right? So I don't know. I don't know what general people would think about oh, it this what's what would uh someone say is chaotic? What a fucking car wreck, but that's a choice. That's people made these things happen, uh, and one decision led to this, and this horrible thing fucking happened or whatever. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought the the car wreck up. Like talking about devs, right? With with a biom.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

With devs, and when I start reading and trying to figure out uh chaos and determinism and all of this, the the example that makes sense in my head that I like is from far away, from 30,000 feet in the sky, the traffic is chaos.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

You can't determine which car is gonna speed up, slow down, switch lanes. You can't look at the traffic and go, that guy's gonna hit the shoulder, this one's gonna bump into that one, this one needs this exit. From far away, it looks like chaos. There's disorder below. The more you zoom in, now you know. You know I'm gonna hit my brakes because you see I'm on my phone not paying attention. Yeah, and then the cause and effect is well, because something traumatic's happening in my family, and I'm on my phone because I'm trying to get to the hospital. So now there's order to why I slam my brakes. Yeah, I'm running late. I gotta ship my pants, so I'm in the sh the the shoulder. Yeah, like it from far away, at least chaotic. Now you're in it, the the closer you get, now everything has the cause and effect, and you can go, well, yeah, now I see why things are happening. Sure. It wasn't unexpected. Yeah, I I can wrap my head around that. That makes sense to me. A car wreck it from a a kid seeing uh his his wife and daughter get in the wreck, he goes, Well, I have no idea what the fuck just happened. I just saw two cars smash into each other. But he goes, there's order. She smashed because she missed it because I called. Yeah, the kid doesn't know that because he's far away from the scenario. Yeah, the other driver doesn't know that. Yeah, but he knows that, and his wife knows that. So that's where, like, yeah, from a certain perspective, there is chaos, but when you get closer to it, there's order. Yeah. And it's predetermined order through cause and effect.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Now my brain goes into what's the opposition to determinism? What's the other viewpoint here? Because now I'm in the headspace of cause and effect is the most obvious, duh. Everything has cause and effect. Everything. Yeah. Whether or not you know the cause doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Well, and that's where philosophy kind of bumps and runs into quantum mechanics. That's what's so interesting about the many worlds theory, right? That's what and that's what's so fascinating about this show. And I guarantee that this is why Alex, Alex Garland is so interested in this stuff. Because, yeah, like and and the definition I wanted to clarify because we talked about it last week is multiverse and many worlds. And multiverse is a larger umbrella term. Many worlds fits under it. But it's it's basically it's basically like the quantum explanation or the the quantum version of what a multiverse would be. And there are different uh concepts of multiverses that don't necessarily comment on the quantum mechanics of it all uh and have different theories, but but many worlds is is under the umbrella of of multiverse.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, they're similar, but many worlds is almost specifically discussing the quantum stuff. Yes, and multiverse can be discussing all sorts of other things, yeah. And it's not directly tied, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

And from what I understand, many worlds, the math checks out for almost all of it, but the issue is all these different parallel worlds of people who made the different choices, they're not observable, so therefore it's never provable. Yeah, but in terms of the math on the paper, it's like quote unquote the most viable. But we're never gonna be able to observe those worlds necessarily, those other worlds. Uh, we only have our deterministic line.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Um, but yeah, that's it. What you're talking about is like when it gets to determinism and it gets into the human concepts of fate and it gets into the human concepts of choice, it always ties into consciousness, and that's where philosophy comes in. Because no, no one knows what consciousness is.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

That makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

And so it bumps on that where they're like, wait, so if we're humans and we can make conscious choices, but if everything's determined, then does that mean that we have no choice? So it's like it philosophy and and quantum mechanics and physics start to overlap each other, and I think that's where this thing of you know, kind of where chaos comes. Because it is a it is at the same time of sure having some kind of empirical definition, which I don't know what it is, but just on the human side of human psychology, like it's a term of oh, that's fucking chaotic. It's something that we have created to describe a situation that we see as messy or a situation that we see as anarchical or or whatever, you know, unpredictable, unpredictable, out of our control, violent. You know, there's many definitions to it.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

And it sounds more just mathematically complex because that's where some of the stuff I was reading is like you have to go to such a small level to start tracing the patterns of something that views chaotic. It's like it really isn't. You can go down to a certain level and then go, well, no, yeah, it's going to be going this way. It's just it's hard to compute that because they start talking about like you're off a decimal point at a small level instead of point three, it's point two. You zoom that out, you're you're your your lines are miles apart. Yeah, divergence. Eventually, the divergence will grow so huge, but at the beginning, point two to point three, it looks the exact same. I I get all of that. I don't like the and I still don't like the idea that determinism, free will, fate, all of that, the the philosophy of it to come into the mechanics of it. I don't um I don't abide. I think I still have free will, even if you could tell me the causes of every effect. I get that, but none of those mechanics are on the obvious front of the decision making that I'm in in the moment. This is also where I go. I don't know how this works with time travel because it feels like cause and effect, you need the effect first. She talks about flipping the coin.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

If you knew the force that I'm gonna flip, you knew the air pressure, you knew all the the friction, you knew the weight of the coin, you if you know all the variables, you can predict heads or tails. Sure. Can you do any of that with also the option of I could just take the coin and put it in my asshole? I could just shove it up my ass. That's an option on the table.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Sure. But that's because of your upbringing and your sense of humor and all this stuff. So that's that's already determined that you would think that's 100% or something, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:38

But this is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

If I did that, you could view that as chaotic, or you go, well, William thought it was funny, he struggles with intrusive thoughts. I'm trying to be, I'm trying to distract you.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

I'm trying to, I'm forcibly trying to be antisocial in the moment to kill your argument because I don't want to talk about this because you killed my boyfriend.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Like even something that views chaotic or quote unquote out of character, you can still trace back going, well, yeah, no, it makes sense why that's on the table for you for A, B, and C. But you don't know that's an option until I do it.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

So if you're playing this time machine game and I have a quarter on my thumb, how do you know whether or not I'm gonna put it in my ass or I'm gonna flip it?

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Well, I think they just mean when it's talking about determinism, it's about a macro view. It is that macro view of objectively, everything is the determined. But subjectively, i.e., the human experience, things do have their different perspective. What we observe, which actually ties also into quantum mechanics, and there is some theories, which I think she actually when they're listing some of those people when they have that lecture, like literally one of the guys one of his theories is that consciousness dictates everything that happens in the universe because we observe the cat. It's similar to the cat thing, is you have to see yeah, exactly. Uh so consciousness ties directly into that. But but it's it's the subjective.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

How do things know they're being observed? I don't want you to even talk about because that breaks my brain. How does a proton know it's being observed? Yeah, exactly. That's insane.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Uh I hate that because consciousness has an effect on it, yeah, exactly. This all ties up into Philip Holman's dust stuff, which is kind of fascinating with his dark materials. But yeah, the subjective chaos exists, right? In terms of determinism, in terms of like humans observe things that appear to be random, yeah, that appear to be chaotic. But on the macro view, uh from the God's eye perspective, nothing is chaotic because oh, this person went through all this, this makes them make this decision, this person went through this, made some other decision. But yeah, when you're observing it yourself, subjectively, things like chaos and randomness appear to exist.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Yeah, it it feels like you can it in my head, it makes sense to reverse engineer. You see me roll the pen and you see it stop, you can mathematically prove why it stopped there. You could make a mirror uh world where you can replicate the same outcome with the same stoppage, but you can't predict whether or not I'm gonna put the pen in my ass. I'm sure I could pull that pen and put it in my ass.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

But that's that's always an option for you as a person.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

But that's what I'm saying is like you can't predict that I will, but if I did, you could go, well, yeah, obviously, because we have all the back data and then make that world showing. So that's where like the many worlds thing makes sense to me of you can show the options. But for you to definitively say for sure what option, you don't know what I'm putting in my ass.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

This is the prime timeline or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

You can't confirm for sure which of these objects I'm putting in my ass. It could be all of them, could be none of them.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

You don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

There's a better chance that you know for sure Katie's not gonna put it in her ass, and she probably doesn't in almost 80 out of 90 of the worlds. Sure. Someone else might put that pen in their ass. And how do you know that just because it's on the table?

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

So I I I don't we're not done with the show.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

That's chicken or the egg. I know what you're saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yeah, and I put the egg in my ass, but you couldn't prove it.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

I wouldn't put chicken in my ass.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Buck buck.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

But it I'm still we're not done, but I'm still trying to figure out how this goes forward. I get how it goes backward.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

I get it.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Well, and that might also be why they have to go to many worlds, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

So they see an outcome, which actually, yeah, I'm excited to check back in after episode eight, because with this one, episode six, I remember how this ends, but I don't really remember the mechanics of it and all this kind of stuff. And watching this episode, it clicked in my head, and maybe it's because I'm in like storytelling mode, and and maybe it's because I've already fucking seen it. So things are clicking behind. I'm like, oh yeah, all right, I can see what happens at the end, and I wonder if if what I'm thinking is correct in terms of like the mechanics of what happened. Because honestly, I remember watching the end and being like, okay, I half get what what happened. I I get what happened here, but I don't get what happened here.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

And I'm embarrassed to say what I thought happened because I don't think it's what happened.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Well, that's why I'm curious. What yeah, we we'll have to talk. I don't want to mention any kind of spoilers just in case you guys will call me stupid when we get it. Some people in the audience uh haven't seen it, but it clicked in my head when I watched it of like okay, and how these extremely smart people could miss this thing or something like that. So yeah, I'm I'm very curious to see.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

And we we get another piece of the puzzle from Lyndon, who's is very B. Johnson. Uh B. Johnson. B. Jordan. Michael B. Jordan. Should we move for it? Lyndon talks about he wants to resurrect his dead daughter.

SPEAKER_01 57:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

And now that puts into perspective the weird rat table.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

What the dead rat, and then it cuts to the video of the rats alive eating the bread.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Yeah, you put the bread down. Exactly. So and that stuff makes sense. Like it doesn't make sense. Oh, I don't that actually. This is what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

This is now where the show jumped into sci-fi fantasy worlds. Everything else was based in mechanics that we're too stupid to understand, but it is based on real theories. The computer scre uh, the TV screen of the sand is showing projections mathematically through determinism. But now they're saying we can make a physical of either the past or the future or a a mirror image of that rat is now alive again eating that piece of bread in a physical space, not a visual only. They now have a magic computer part of Dev's that I don't know if it brought the rat back to life or reversed the death to the point that it was alive. Exactly. But it's still the idea that now there's a part of the machine that has a physical instead of just the sand TV screen. Well, it's interacting with what is physical. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now it's it's a real world thing. And then when Lyndon says he wants to resurrect his daughter, I was like, he's gonna put his dead daughter on the table and then use the dev's computer, and then his daughter's back alive. I'm still feeling weird that I don't know his wife's name, and it's not my wife and daughter. Yeah, he's not a fan of Borat. He didn't give a shit about his wife. This dude's on yeah, I don't know her. Yeah, the my daughter's half of me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're a stranger to you know, to quote someone.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

You know, maybe not he's he's like, yeah, let's just start with the smallest person and then maybe work up to adult. Child adult, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

We'll get around to her. Yeah, the the table's made of glass, it only holds 80 pounds. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Yeah, I I don't know. I don't know. And I thought I ventured into sci-fi fantasy. Obviously, this show does. Yeah, I'm super curious to see uh episode eight.

SPEAKER_00 59:53

How do you like this episode? It's a talky sit-down episode.

SPEAKER_01 59:58

Yeah, I I like it. It dips into a little bit of TV-ness, kind of like you said for two episodes ago, right? Yeah. Um, where like the post-conversation of Forrest and Emily, what's her name? Who's the other Katie? Katie.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

Allison Pill? Yes. Yeah, Katie, the drummer for the sex bubble bombs, Katie.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

Kim, the conversation that Forrest and Katie have after their conversation with Lily and all that kind of stuff, that feels a little TV to me. Like it is supposed to be cutesy, but at the same time, of like, oh, she's really smart. And uh, do we like him? Oh, yeah, we do like him. Like, I was just like, how are you getting that Lily is very smart from that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

That's so funny because I thought the same thing. Yeah, I was like because the writing's not there. It felt like Lily for a 10-minute monologue scene just kept going, What? Exactly. Wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Yeah, exactly. That's a tough scene. It's still not working for me. I know it's very tough. And this, yeah, that scene does her no favors whatsoever. But I didn't buy that. That felt like writing to me, where I'm just like, okay, you explain uh devs in this unique way to this person who you know isn't aware of the project. That's effective, I think, as a as a viewer, but I don't see what she saw from that. So I'm like, that feels just forced. It feels like forced writing. Where it's like, we want to empathize with these two people. I believe Forrest, more so if he's like, Yeah, they're brave kids. That's a that's good writing. I like that because that is true. They did it did take courage for them to come here, come there, and saying, like, oh, I think that's all her, and he's like, Oh, yeah, for sure. But Katie's take on it of like, oh, she's she's very smart and blah blah blah, and her feeling connected to them. I'm like, I get where she watched and enjoyed their story in the previous episode via the devs machine, yeah. So maybe that had softened her up a bit, but I just didn't get that from that conversation. So it I just didn't buy it a bit, and I was just like, that just feels forced, which makes me think of oh, this is where the character needs to go. So this feels TV-ish. This feels writerly. But I like I do like the episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

I was gonna say this this is definitely one of my favorite episodes because I I when the writing's good, just sit two motherfuckers down to talk and I eat it up. Oh yeah. The minute she's they sit at a table and the pen was in frame, I was like, oh yeah, I'm here for this. I'm so excited. I'm gonna sit here and hear them just talk about all of these big fancy concepts that I'm too dumb to fully comprehend. And I just I I feel there's something comforting about it. I was just about to say, I I feel very comforted and at peace in that room with them talking this and the the outside conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Well, the juxtaposition of the evolution of Forrest and Jamie's conversation of very antagonizing on the porch, they kind of slowly opening up, and then just the cut to them fucking playing frisbee, and then when they leave, then he just sets the frisbee on the ground, and then we have you know the uh such a good tease of Kenton just fucking fuming, thinking he's gonna go down, which that felt a little TV ish too, where it's just like Forrest would have been like Forrest would have known and waved at him exactly hey, it's my guy. Exactly. He absolutely would have recognized this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Wasn't that far away?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

No, exactly. It was the same street. And Kenton for being an ex CIA guy, do some fucking operative shit. Figure out what's actually going on. Yeah, like actually listen to the conversation. Yeah, I was gonna say the apartment. Yeah, don't be a weird paranoid guy. Don't just be like, oh well, I see how it is. It's like you're supposed to be smarter than that. Yeah, and that that kind of bugs me. It feels like um so they're losing me with Kenton a little bit in this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

I have a fix that makes this show 10% better. You gotta switch the actors for Lily and Lyndon. So they're we're done. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Kaylee Spenny plays Lily, and then this girl plays Linden. Yeah, like that'd be that'd be sick. That's it. Yeah. That's uh that's all you gotta do. You got the wrong androgynous uh girl for the role, that's all. Yep, I agree. Switch them, we're perfectly fine. Yep, better show. That's all it took. Absolutely. Cause uh yeah, I I I like Lily as a written character. I think the actress is okay, but it's not enough. Yeah. And when it has to be enough, like at the table scene, it comes out very obvious, it's not enough. Yeah, there's there's too much of an emotional detachment, there's too much of a distance, and I just I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Well, it's it's not working for me. It's tough because we as the audience do know more than her, but she knows the important details in terms of they did kill Sergei. Yeah, she knows Sergei was an operative, and I know that she's dealing with the trauma of that, which this the final part of this episode deals with, right? She's like coming to my bed. I didn't know him. I thought I did, I didn't. I know you, which I like that. I think I like that scene, I like that line. It's okay, yeah. But if she's supposed to be so smart, why is she a woman?

unknown 1:05:36

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

You have to laugh so they don't think you disagree.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

I thought you were gonna cut it out. It annoys me that she's not piecing things together better. She's like, oh well that like seriously, when Katie's talking about what the dev system does, and she's like, Oh, well, and that's worse. Killing Sergei for? Like, yes, you yes, what do you mean? We fought wars for less. Yeah, like how naive are you? You work for this giant mega corporation. Like it it's and maybe that's kind of the point is she is a naive person or something, or she's supposed to be sheltered or or or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

But I don't that bugged me too. She's too capable. That was a Christopher Nolan line. Where I was like, the emotion and the reality of the world, that shit doesn't add up. I was like, we're talking about like proving the rules to the universe.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

She just told you they saw Chris on the cross. And you're like, oh, and that's worth killing Sergey for one Russian spy.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

Yeah, that's it. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

And she's like, who did it? Who do you think did it? You fuck you have interacted with everybody in this department.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

Who do you like the guy that came to your apartment after you got in a car wreck with him and he took you away? Maybe that guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

The fucking security enforcer, you fucking moron. Like that shit is so frustrating to me. And then to have the next scene, her being like, oh, she's really smart. No, she isn't. No, she's not. Like that, it it I agree. It bugs me. It bugs me. But so it it it's it's getting a little rocky, but I I do uh yeah, switching. It's not all the actors' fault, it's not all her fault. The writing slips a little bit, which hey, there's so much heady shit in this episode, and there is a lot of emotional stuff, which I think does work. So I get it, but at the same time, I'm just like there's a lack of consistency. She either is naive and not capable, but she can't be naive and extremely capable like she has been. So, like, or it's about her learning a little bit and and growing more weary, you know, of the world and not trusting it. Yeah, see, I'm just my I'm just in Ryder's brain, but yeah, it just kind of it just felt inconsistent.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Yeah, it it I do think it works better if she knew everything, she just needs to hear you say it. Yeah, and then it goes, okay, so what the fuck's in the room that's worth killing people for? Yeah, yeah. Her not knowing and getting each individual answer. I was like, I don't know. You met a Russian spy, yeah. Exactly. You're his name, Sergei. Like, I think you can put one and two together. Yeah, exactly. You can do this work and you should have if you knew to pull one over on Kenton to get all that computer. You know what I mean? You're already so close. You just round it out, and then this should be a different dynamic for the table.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Uh could be a theme if what I've been thinking of for episode eight comes to fruition and some people are missing some obvious things with what's gonna happen. Maybe that's a theme because she's missing obvious things too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. Because I have no friggin' clue. Nick, is the Amaya statue his daughter's arms out, waiting to catch the frisbee?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

Good question. I don't know. I'd have to rewatch that opening, yeah. But yeah, just cut to him fucking laying in the grass with talking about surrealism with those flowers in the dark. Yeah, it's good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

Talk about Star Wars because you said episode eight. Episode three. Yeah, that's Padme's funeral. It's true with all the flowers around. Yeah, sad Jar Jar walking behind it. Oh, god damn it. I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Um Do you have any random stuff, or did we touch on all the stuff you wanted to talk about? Oh, I love that they bring back the RV because that is in some of the opening shots of episode one. Uh not Star Wars Under the Bridge. But episode one of Deads. Yeah, Under the Bridge. Uh not the red-eyed chili pepper song. But Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

Have you ever heard Tom Sharpling shit on that uh song? No. Where he's just listening to it, and then when Anthony Keatis like gets all high for the I don't know, he's like, You're a minute into a five-minute song, you're already at like the climax. He's like, What's the fucking structure of this song? Like, he's so mad at it. He's like, This is the worst song ever written. The structure is such garbage. That's hilarious. He hates the red-eye children.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:17

It's so funny. Uh, but I like that that's Stuart's house.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

Yes, and that's it's Willow Generator doing two things at once, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

It is critiquing Silicon Valley in terms of like they work for these billion-dollar corporations and they can't afford to live in a fucking house. Or is it by choice? No, but this is by choice because we know, I mean, $10 million separation thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:37

But what's he gonna do with that money?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:39

Yeah, but I like that it's both. It's it tells us who Stewart is as a character, and the subtext is critical of the industries that are being showcased in the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

I loved the shot of them going over the bridge.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

Oh, yeah. I've never seen a more David Fincher-coded shot in anything in a very long time. Yeah, that I was like, that it looks like an outtake from Zodiac. Like that was such a Fincher shot, and then also where the way the lights were structured, the flares was like it's also the the devs, uh, the internal of the devs, like it's the same square. Yeah, it's like this is cool. I don't know what it means, but I like it. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

Rob Hardy's a cinematographer, and he works with him all the time. It's fucking great. I don't know if he's doing Elden Ring with him or not. I haven't heard but yeah, so yeah, it's so fucking good. I love those those shots.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:36

Yeah, a lot of the street shots, a lot of the straight lines, a lot of the grid. I think it obviously plays into the overall concept of the tram and the determinism, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, that bridge shot was uh uh some pretty, pretty looking things.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Yeah, and I love that nobody knows who Katie is. Again, Kenton didn't know who she is, and you have the subtle misogyny coming from women. Anytime I see subtle misogyny coming from a woman to another woman, smirk. Yeah, I'm always just like keep it to yourself and smile. The patriarchy, man. We really fucked people over. Sure. Because she's like, Oh yeah, he's sleeping with the boss, and it's like she's the fucking lady who designed the thing, yeah, but no one knows who she is. Yeah, uh but I like maintaining that theme uh of she's literally the man behind the curtain, right? Yeah, that's Wizard of Oz, I think, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Yeah, that is. It's also uh anti-Zionist Jewish propaganda. Yikes. You're the yeah, never mind. Woohoo! I was about uh I was gonna add uh some edit work to William to reference books I was gonna say are on your uh your stand over here that you're reading. You're gonna edit that hour annoying. The elders of don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

Uh yeah, and I like speaking of the filmmaking, we don't we talk about it, you know. I don't know why I'm qualifying it. You know. Speaking of or some of the filmmaking in the conversation, when we kind of get the tease that Katie might tell Lily that she's gonna die. Yeah, but really she just says, Oh, we can only see this far into the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

I think you got something to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

So it cuts in and starts doing centered close-ups on them and just back and forth there where it used to be out doing the two shots and stuff like that. So it's like when it gets personal, when it's about what's gonna happen, we focus in close. I I really like that, just very effective. And I was wondering if Katie was, I mean, because we we saw the dev system focus in with Lyndon's work, right? But she tells Lily, Oh, only in the past couple months have we really honed in on this thing of what it does. But then with Forrest in their bed conversation, she says, It's no longer years, it's no longer months, it's no longer days, it's just hours or whatever. I'm like, wait, so they've been able to look in the past for years, and she lied to Lily about it. They've just now figured this thing out. So I'm I was just like, I don't know if I didn't catch a slip or not, or I wasn't following all the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

Yeah, yeah. So I was that's they knew the anomaly when everything breaks, they're like, Oh, it's years out.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:19

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Have they known for years? Yeah, you know, and this goes back to my confusion of everything. You fired Lyndon because Lyndon used the many worlds to focus in the audio. Yeah, because he doesn't want many worlds, he wants one world, which we reiterate in the RV when they talk to each other. Yep. Katie got hired because of her belief in the many worlds theory when she was arguing with the professor. Or is it, or was she against it?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:47

I don't remember if she's gonna be asking.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:49

She's a proponent for it, okay, but Forrest isn't. So we come right back to this idea of two ideas. One, I don't know what's happening, I'm dumb. Yeah. Or how much of this is what he really truly believes, or is he forcing something? No, exactly. And I think the show's still there.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

I think the show is leaning towards that. Yeah. Especially with Stewart saying, or you know, he wants one world, and Lyndon saying he just wants to resurrect his daughter. Yeah, and that is because he's got to rewrite the rules to the fucking universe. Yeah. This is he wants to do this no matter what the answer is. You know, he's like, that's not our Jesus. We saw a Jesus, which not our Jesus, not Maya Maya.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:34

Yeah, one of the best lines of the show so far. So good. I really did like this episode. I agree with you. There uh there's some there's some faults to it. Sure, some bumpy writing, but but it's fun. Uh sitting down talking is always uh fun to me when it's a good writer.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, to pull things off really well. Yeah, the next two episodes we're bringing the boys back. So next week should be Josh Jenkins on episode seven, and then after that, it's gonna be Dave Jordan to close out Dev's episode eight, which we need to text both of them and schedule those.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:11

But yeah, should be cool because yeah, episode seven, we were right before the big finish. I think some shit's gonna hit the fan, and uh, and then we got the big climax.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:22

Yeah, you're horny today.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:24

I guess just angry.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

All right. Well, that's unfortunate for me. He takes it out on yeah, you're not going anywhere. It's aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Three minutes of playtime. Uh so yeah, we'll be back next week. Looking forward to uh devs wrapping up so just we can figure out what the fuck's going on and see if we're dumb or not. Uh which the answer you already know. Yeah, I was gonna say I got an answer. You're not gonna like it. Yeah, exactly. Uh so we'll be back next week. Thank you for listening. I love you. I love you too.