SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to season 10 of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer Alex Garland. I'm William who loves Alex Garland. And I'm Nick who also loves Alex Garland. And today we're gonna discuss episode five of his series devs. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I'm okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Tired. Yeah. Does the gloomy weather get to you?

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Uh no, it's been nice. I like the I like that it's cooler a little bit before it gets really hot. Same. Yeah, I just didn't sleep particularly well. Yeah, Kiris had a s stomach bug over the overnight, and so I stayed home with the boy today. And but the you know, she's feeling better, and so far Leo and I feel fine. Um that's actually got a stomach bug. It's the worst. It's the absolute worst. Absolutely. So yeah, she's on the mend, and uh yeah, it's fine. Just went to the comic book shop today, which is nice, and got some Pokemon cards and chatted with Mikey about how free comic book day went and everything, which was seemed very successful. Oh, good. Had a really good time. Uh Saturday. Yeah, every year. I think it's the first Saturday of every May. They didn't free comic book day.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

So they were packed and had some artists in town and had a little mini convention. Yeah, so I think they did it really, really well. So been good. Yeah, some crazy neighborhood drama. Uh oh. On Sun uh Sunday? Yeah, on Sunday, uh, which was a bit uh scary, which I'm just gonna get uh you know, Republican Knicks jokes from you. No surprise, surprise. But so across the street from my in-law's house, so Caddy Corner to us, that place used to be owned by some like family friends. So like uh growing up when Kira and Adrienne, her older sister were growing up, they had a daughter who's one of Adrienne's friends, and so they're like, you know, they've lived there forever. And then a couple years ago, they built another house just north of here and sold this house. And uh a guy bought it as an investment property. And so first he tried to do Airbnb with it, and then he had to, he didn't, you know, the village didn't approve that, so then he uh did like long-term rentals or something, and you know, like the first people to rent it were some kind of it's some actor, you know, for who was on some show. Uh they were filming here for like I don't know, it must have I think it was a TV show because Lorenzo Lamas. Maybe, yeah, it could have been him with his wife and and a kid, and they were here for like six or eight months, so I it had to have been a television series. And then after that, it's mostly just been like a big group of people who work for like a power company or some kind of like infrastructure-based thing, like someone's like a cable company or something like that. So they're working on big infrastructure projects, maybe some you know, server farm stuff down south or something, but it'd be like literally like eight cars there and you know, 10 people. And uh, but they're all nice. Some of them would have kids, some you know, they're just fucking there, you know. Yeah, you know, nothing crazy. Yeah, see, Williams Wade. He's already just like, okay, racist.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

There has to be, I mean, I'm not asking what color were they. I was gonna ask what type of vehicle, and that'll tell me. But keep going.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

You just yeah, there was there was whites, yeah, and there was some Hispanic folk. Sorry, Latinx. No, but there was groups, it's just working class folk.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

I'm more just laughing of your uh I see you can't help with the weird specifics of like you're going down a rabbit hole of what job it might be.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

No, because they have like their cable, their cable, uh they have their like company cars there. Sure. Yeah, because they park there. Yeah. I'm just laughing because I know you and you can't help the specificity in a way, it's so cute. And I mean, and it goes to show like the fucking the ridiculous prices that this guy is charging. One number we heard was two thousand dollars a month. And then the the last one that I saw online after searching the address was four thousand dollars a month. Four's a lot for rent. Like you have an actor living there who the production's paying for that, and then you have ten fucking working class blue-collar people, you know, who have just probably come in from a bigger city who headquarters that company or something, right? I know, sorry. I just I have to know the narrative of what why these people are here.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

So they could be coming from Portalis.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

So so yeah, they you know, that's mostly what it's been for the past couple years. And in between these groups of people who have come and lived there, this guy who owns the property, I don't think he lives in town. He sends his elderly parents to come and clean the fucking house.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

That bugs me.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah. And he's charging at least $2,000 a month. And I mean, I again I've I've over the years I've gotten more even more annoyed with like fucking landlords and private equity and all these people who are fucking ruining the world. It's like I get you on a second thing of income so you can make money, like, but get a fucking job. I don't know. I mean, I doubt this is his real job, you know what I mean? But still, that bugs me. I'm like, $2,000 a month, you can't play pay professional cleaners, you have to send your fucking parents over to it. And maybe it could be like the parents are like, oh, don't pay for it. We're retired, we'll do it, whatever. It just never feels that like the case. Exactly. I don't like it. So it's been a couple months since uh, you know, a group of people have lived there, and there's only been like one guy living there, and I've only seen his one car, and I I haven't really seen the guy last week, uh, so I don't know what's up, but my father-in-law said, Oh, I saw this guy he came over the other day and asked to use my phone to call the VA. And the guy he's like he's only like in his mid-40s, like he doesn't seem that old. And I was like, Oh, that's kind of weird. How do you rent that house and not have a fucking phone? Yeah, how do you pay that much money and and not have a phone? And he's like, Yeah, it's kind of weird. And then a couple of nights ago, this is my father-in-law saying this, oh, they we saw two giant fire trucks chopping him back off at the house, like he had some kind of medical incident. And so I'm like, What the fuck? So he's a he's a veteran who doesn't have a phone, who is somehow living in a place that's at least $2,000 a month, and he's having some kind of injury or something like that. So that was the first time I'd heard about him. I'd seen his car there a little bit. And then so on Sunday it's like 5 30. We're getting ready to go eat dinner with my in-laws, and we usually take Kira's car, but it was the weekend, and Kira does a lot of dance on the weekend, so I usually put the car seat in my truck. So we went outside to get the car seat out of my truck and put it back into Kira's car. So I carry the car seat from my truck in the I know specificity. Williams laughing to himself.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

I was also like, No, it matters your in-law's next door. You take a vehicle next door, you don't just walk?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

No, we're gonna pick them up and go out to eat. That's what it is. Okay. Yeah, we're gonna pick them up and go out to eat. But Kira's car has a little more room in the back seat than mine does.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

So I get the car seat out of my truck, which is in the carport. Kira and Leo. Leo's playing with his little tool set that's in the carport. Kira's kind of by is just kind of by the front of the house, and I'm over towards the other side of the house, putting the seat. I literally just set the seat.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

So it's distance between you, Kira, and Leo.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah, I literally just set it in in her car, and I just hear someone screaming. And it's a man or woman. A man. Okay. A man screaming, but like very fucking high pitched, and like in a not normal scream.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Like really screaming at the top of your lungs. And I'm like, what the fuck? Where is this? And I can't see that house from where Kira's car sparked. There's like bushes and all this stuff and then some trees. And then the guy comes running out, he comes into view, so I can see him across the street. Yeah. He's running towards my neighbor's house directly across from us. And it looks like he's like being stung by bees. He's like swatting things. Yeah, he's like trying to swat stuff off of them. SWAT sweat swat-swat swat. And I'm like, what is going on? But he's screaming. And I'm like, wait, are there bees in the house? Like, how? Like, because he you heard him slam out the door.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Pee.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, okay. And then he kind of stops for a second, and I'm like, are you okay? Because it's weird, because it's like you get adrenalized immediately. Yeah. Like you hear someone screaming like unnaturally, and you're like, what the fuck? And he goes, Yeah. And he looks at me. And as soon as he looks at me, I realize he's holding a knife in his hand and blood starts running down his other hand that he's not holding a knife in. And he goes, And I don't know the exact wording. It's either you look like I'm about to kill you, or you look like you think I'm about to kill you. It's one of those two things. And I'm like, Kira go geo, run right now.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

So I just shut the door, Kira runs and gets him, and immediately after he says that, and the blood starts coming down his hand, he starts freaking out again. And how old? In his forties.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

That's right. In his forties. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

So so he's holding a kitchen knife and he's bleeding. And he's trying to fight some invisible demons off of him. We just run around our backyard, and luckily, you know, there's a little we sh could have just run inside our own house, but where Leo was, I'm like, I don't want to bring him towards where this guy could be coming if he's going to come across the street. So we run to the backyard. We have a gate that goes to our in-laws' backyard as well. So we just went through there, went in the back, and uh went into their house and called the cops. And he's just and he went over to our my neighbor's house across the street, and they're not home, they're on vacation or something like that, but their dog sitter is there. And Cira calls the cops, tell them, tells them what's going on, and you know, a couple other neighbors start coming out, uh, calling the cops. You know, Kira uh tells him, and and we live right by the Burnley Oak County Sheriff's Office. So they the guys roll up pretty quick, and like my father-in-law tries to go like lucky loo, and my mother-in-law is so fucking mad. She's like, Yeah, lock the fucking door. Like, she's so mad. He's like, What? I just want to see.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

And I'm like, Yeah, ladies don't like do ladies don't play with chaos. Yeah, they're like stay away, and there's always a guy of like yeah, I'm gonna get as close as I can.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, and it's like this guy is clearly having like a schizophrenic episode with a knife, and my father-in-law, who's 72 or 73, like, yeah, it's hilarious. But with a pickleball paddle in his hand, exactly, and a torn rotator cuff. Yeah, his right arm has a his shoulders torn. So the sheriff's department roll up, and the guy is. I could see it kind of like really uh blown out video-wise from my doorbell camera. He's across the street at my neighbor's house trying to jump in his backyard or trying to jump into my neighbor's neighbor's backyard, who's an old man. Luckily, he has two boxer dogs who are pretty sweet, but I'm just gonna say boxers are sweet too. They would try to refend him off, you know, they'd bark at him or something like that. But but he's literally trying to jump the fence over there, and the the sheriffs roll up, the fire fighters come, and the the EMTs come. I'm like, well, and you know, one of the cars blocks Kira's car, and I'm like, all right, well, they're here, they're handling it, we can go out to eat now, so I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

And Nick's like, I do need to eat. No, exactly. I do need to eat.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Exactly. So we're like, let's just get out of here, avoid the drama. And because you're so fucking adrenalized, you're like, Yeah, I saw a guy with a knife bleeding, and my son was right there, and it's like, fuck this, man. I don't know what this guy's gonna do. So we are really shook up, and some and one of the cops had parked behind Kira's car, so we're like, yeah, we'll just take my mother-in-law's car. So I'm like, but I'm gonna I need to go lock the house. Because I didn't lock the house because we just we literally ran over to their house. And I walk outside their back door, and then I immediately hear like pop, pop, and I'm like, okay, look. Oh no, they're they're shooting them, I guess. So I let's cook. Well, I go back inside, I wait a little bit, I look at the camera, and and they're they're fine. And it's it sounded it wasn't really loud gunshots. I was like, I bet you they just fucking tasered him or something like that. Because I don't they weren't loud enough for actual thing, but they were they were doing something, they were trying to get him. So I wait a couple minutes, go back out, come back into my my house, come back from the backyard through my carport again, and I see my direct neighbor on the other side and a neighbor from a few houses like down the block talking to each other, and I'm like, Oh, do they get the guy? And they're like, Oh yeah, yeah, and whatever. We're just like like, oh shit. And I told him what I saw and all this stuff, and and then as we're kind of chatting for a second, they roll him out on the gurney, and so they did subdue him somehow, yeah, non-letally, luckily. I mean, if it was APD, I'm sure they would have blasted him. Yeah, but but it's the sheriff's county, I don't know, you know, whatever, but he's strapped to the gurney, soaked in blood, and uh and he's still writhing around. Yeah, yeah, he's still fucking talking and like going it. So whatever they did to subdue him, it didn't really work. And whenever they called to finalize the police report with Kira, whenever we finally went out to eat, they were like, Oh yeah, we had to perform like life-saving measures on him because he had so many cuts on him, and hopefully he'll make it. So, like he was having some kind of schizophrenic whatever breakdown. Or he's on drugs, or sure. So he thought something was on him, and he was stabbing himself with a kitchen knife. And yeah, we called our neighbor and I gave him their information just because you know they had to be by their house and all this stuff. And and Kira was texting our our neighbor, and he was like, Oh, yeah, our our poor dog sitter is there. Yeah, and the the guy was on the ring cam, like screaming to their at their front door trying to say, get them off of me or something like that, you know. So yeah, I was just like, Motherfucker.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

It's terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, so absolutely scary. Yeah, it was so scary. Cause it's the it's the chaotic nature of it where it's just like because he had that moment of clarity where I'm like, Are you okay? And then he stopped and was like, Yeah, but then that like and I think literally he wasn't being threatening to me. He was just saying, like, I think he saw my face and I looked scared, and he was probably you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

That makes me feel there's always a thing with certain psychotic episodes where he knows. Probably, but he's kind of sort of leaning into it. Well, he knows he has a like uh He said it in a way of like he's essentially saying, I know I'm scaring you right now. Yeah, yeah. He didn't put the knife down, no, he didn't apologize, he didn't sit on the floor, he didn't ask for help. It is that thing of like, I'm not gonna hurt you. I kind of like that you're scared. Like he's the way he words that's that is the thing sometimes is it was a very weird way to put it.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah, and that's what threw me off is like just the way that he said it wasn't I don't think it was threatening, but the the way that he said it is still threatening to us. It's because it's unknown. Well, like, oh, you look like I'm gonna kill you. And that's the biggest fear. Exactly. And literally you're bleeding. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? And you're screaming at the top of your lungs. So yeah, I was just like, ugh, fuck. So but I don't know. His car was there for a couple days, it's gone now. And while we were waiting, you know, for the cops to come, I was just like, that landlord is so fucking lucky, I don't have his contact information or know where he lives. And I, you know, of course, I said like the Nikki be thing of like, I'm gonna show up at his house with a fucking knife and a bloody hand. And my father-in-law got his number from like the other another couple neighbors and like sent him a mean text of like, this is the last straw, blah blah blah. You need to sell your house to uh a family or something that'll fit the neighborhood. Nobody likes what you're doing here, and and you know, and the all the neighbors we ran into, you know, through after all this stuff, they're like, Oh yeah, we're officially complaining to the village, which who knows what the village can do.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

But well, the village can absolutely do a lot.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

I mean, but yeah, he's because he's still there's a lot of money here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

And they don't play about that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

So and he doesn't have a license to do short-term rentals or something like that. I'm sure there's some kind of con, but the village has very strict rules about Airbnbs and rentals, so he's not complying. And they said my father-in-law sent an email to like the zoning guy or something like that and told him about the incident. And and the guy was like, Oh yeah, he doesn't have a license to do this at his house. So yeah, hopefully he's gonna sell his fucking house because he's a fucking greedy scumbag. And I don't feel bad about I don't feel mad at the guy who had the mental fucking breakdown. Clearly, if he's a veteran and he can't he's trying to struggle to get his health care, and the rumor around the neighborhood is that his father lives in Deeds Farms or something like that, paid on signed for the lease and is paying for this guy to live here. So it's just like, wait, so you have a dad who lives somewhat close, you know, yeah, is paying for you to do here. I don't know, but out of sight and out of mind. Exactly, it could be something like that. Yeah, which not anymore. I mean we'll assist from afar. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

That's how a lot of uh families deal with issues.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, of course. Yeah, because it's hard to um it's easier to do that, it's easier to pay two thousand dollars a month than to pay that same money to put him in a fucking care facility.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Or to have him live with you.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. So I hope the landlord will fucking get rid of that because I just I was just seething about how mad I was at that guy. Because the other guy, whatever, it's it's it sucks, you know. Yeah, I mean, the country's mental health state of mental health care is garbage, and you're a veteran and you know, even if he's just doing drugs on his own, he's doing drugs to ease some kind of pain. So, like, do I want that by my house? No, but that's a systemic issue, you know what I mean? And the guy was stabbing himself and almost died.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

So Yeah, he's not you know, yeah, he's not he's not playing buck chair super loud at three in the morning. He's not like a white trash asshole. Like there's a legit problem that's bigger than all of us.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, he has it's some kind of medication, mental health issues.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Which I I do love, and I I didn't want to interrupt because I had no idea. I didn't know this story, so I had no idea what was what was coming. And because you have family, you have a kid, the in-laws are older over to the side. I was like, well, I don't want to make jokes and make light of it yet, just in case it is as serious as it was. But I was thinking at the beginning of the story, I was like, You're mad enough there's too many cars parked in the the street in the driveway. Like that's already bugging Nicholas. That's red state Nick is like no, uh-uh, clean this up. See cardport holds two, three at most, but more than three. No, get out of here. Yeah, no, zoning laws need to get rid of that. I was like, you already hate that.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

I do. I really, and you know, we were talking about uh friend of the pod, Joshua Belavarski, out in LA uh before the pod. And literally last time I was in LA, uh, that was one of the things that they were giving me such a fucking hard time for is because there's all this fucking street parking in LA. Yeah, because it's such a big city, and I love visiting LA. I'm like, dude, kid, I was literally like, I can't imagine paying five million dollars for a house, and you have people park in front of your house. And they were like, Yeah, they were just couldn't relate to me less, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

And I'm like they're like, Why would you care? And you go.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

I'm like, what do you mean it's a stranger? You don't know who that is, and like they were just giving me such a hard time. Literally, like every time they'd see someone parked in front of a house, they'd be like, Oh no, Nick. He doesn't live there. I'm like, God damn it. So no good, leaving his car there. It's like I am an old person. Yeah, uh but yeah, uh yeah, I don't I don't like the cars. Of course. Sometimes my neighbor who's extremely nice, and I really do. Across the street or beside across the street neighbors sometimes when he has a party, people or not even when he has a party, I'm forgiving when they do parties, but sometimes just a guy will randomly park by our house, and I'm like, who the f in front of ours? I'm like, park across the street, motherfucker. Like, I guess I know it seems like it's common land, uh, you know, or it's up for use, and but I'm like, actually, like five foot of it is mine. We got this motherfucker surveyed.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

The easement, guys, my property easement. It's just and it is one of those of like I can't put into words why it would bug anybody, but I get why it like you looking outside your house going, I'm not using that space, I don't need it. You're not uh blocking my driveway, so if I have to leave, I still can. But you're still like, I just don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

It's a proximity thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I just don't like it. I don't know. I get it. It's the same as like uh if you're on an airplane and someone puts their stuff above yours, oh yeah, and then they sit way in the it's like, no, your stuff with you. Yeah, I I don't need that space above me, but if I did. I don't like that you took it.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's something about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

It is very funny. But I mean, other than that, I try to. I mean, you guys know me listening to the podcast. Yeah. But yeah, a little dramatic.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Very dramatic.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

And of course, for the rest of the day, I'm thinking, like, oh, I need to get some more cameras or something like that. Or and I'm not going to buy a weapon, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

No, he already has a bunch, guys. Don't break into his house. It is very secure.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

A taser would be good or something like that. Um I had we already have pepper spray, I think, or something like that somewhere. Now I'm like doxing myself. Everyone's gonna come back.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

That's why I said you do have a lot of weapons. I do have baseball bats for sure, but that's multiple cameras.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yes, there are, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Stay away.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Um, yes, please don't.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

And he's poor. You guys hear about it. Don't steal his Pokemon cards.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

That's all he's got. Yeah, you want to try to resell that shit? Yeah, good luck. Yeah, there's nothing worth stealing in the house. And then I'm just like, eh, fuck it, whatever. As long, as long as something's done about it, the guy isn't back, and and I mean that's perfectly fine. Hopefully he's gonna get some help that he needs. Yeah. But yeah, this motherfucker needs to sell his house, let some someone fucking buy it who's not just gonna be fucking renting it out and all this stuff. And the guy's still gonna make a fucking fortune on the house.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Or just be more limited to who you're renting. Sure. You gotta actually like pay attention and care about this shit. Yeah, exactly. It's not just passive income for whoever's quickest.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, which that's what I am. Just like you're just making money off of people. You're just taking people. Yeah, I just can't.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I don't well. Do you think housing should be free, Nicholas? Uh would that help your problem if he gave that house away for free and let anybody rent it? So dumb.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

No, if you own a house, you should live in it. You know what I mean? I don't know. And you should be able to own a house, you know what I mean? Like it should be affordable to own a house. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, whatever. I'm preaching to a man who lives in a gated community. So really, yeah, you are more Republican than me at this point.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Gated community is not a Republican thing.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I don't know. I think if we did a survey. You me living in a gated community. The only person, other person besides you that I know that lives in a gated community Seth Rogan. Is no the director of my department at work. And he's very much a Republican, very much a scared white man.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Hey, I've I've I've I've done my done your time. I've done my time. People dying in front of my parking lot and drugs, and yeah, I've I've I've seen enough guns.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Yeah, we've lived in some places. Yeah, I don't even know. How was your last apartment actually?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

You mean the one the girl died in front of my car? That one?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

She got run over and her leg fell off in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah. Yeah. That one? You mean that one?

SPEAKER_02 24:56

But how was it around your like apartment actual place?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

It was it was an apartment. The the neighborhood was fine. The neighbors were okay. It was funny. Uh, right when I was moving out, the guy that I shared uh the bedroom wall with, he was a single guy. He's really nice, but he was an alcoholic. The reason why I say he was an alcoholic is because he uh I would see him every once in a while. He would talk super nice, but he was always talking about, oh yeah, I'm gonna go get drinks, or I got some drinks. Do you want to come over and drink? Jesus. But always throwing up.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Ugh.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Always puking and not that late at night. Like at like he's hammered enough to be puking at like seven. Oh my god. Or eight o'clock at night. So I was like, yeah, this guy's got problems. Fucking apartments, man. All day. And yeah, we share a wall, so like I'm trying to take like a random shit, and then I just hear a guy throwing up. I was like, oh I gotta move. I gotta get out of here. Fuck, bro. I was like, fuck, get out of here. That yeah. It's gross. It sucks. Yeah, fuck like you never think about that. Everyone thinks about you're sharing a wall, you're gonna hear people have lame sex. No, you never think about it. You're gonna hear someone puking their guts out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's uh not fun thing. You just heard diarrhea splashes. I mean, that'd be better, but like hearing a random stranger say, oh god, you know what I mean? Where you're just like, oh no, what's happening? I was like, shit, I hate this. Is not what I want to do after I ate Chibotle. Uh see him like plead to himself.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

I hate that so much. That's horrific.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you got out of that. Yeah, me too. You're Republican, I'm not, but it's fine. I'm yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I think it's a thing of it is an ongoing joke for the podcast, but it is, and it's funny how we're both very, very liberal, yeah, yeah, bleeding heart sissies when it comes to most things, but we both have a line. We both have there is but I mean, I am joking, but you know I nailed it with the you saw trucks, you're like, I don't like that. I don't there's too too many of them. Whatever them means, it doesn't matter. There's too many of them, and I don't like it. It's real, yeah, yeah, of course. It's in you. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

But I think we're yeah, I think in different ways, we're probably about in terms of like percentage of of conservative, I think we're probably the same, you know, just not about different things. I think it depends on the the thing and how much we really truly. But I you just you know, like give me a hard time. But I also think some of that's projection, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

I don't think any of it's projection. I think it's easier to say it because you uh you had a wife, kid, and house first. So I'm like, look at you, you're white. You're doing the old man thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got to I got to stick it on you before you get to stick it on me. Yeah. Like, ah, look at you. Well, you've been an old man. And you're in a nice you're in a nice part of town. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you you pay to keep the rest of the house. Well, it was it was until some asshole started renting, yeah. Which uh he needs to rent to someone that better fits the values of the neighborhood. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Well, that's why I'm like, just rent it to to a fuck someone with like because that's what's happened to our neighborhood. Someone like who? Describe them. No, like a couple who has a kid or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

That's what I was gonna say. Is like it's also a good size house. It should be families only, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

And yeah, it's got it's at least should be families. Three-bedroom, four-bedroom. Yeah, it's a super nice house. That's what's happened to the neighborhood over the past few years, is you know, the older people have been passing away who own the houses originally back in the day, and and families have been buying the houses. Like Leo's got multiple little buddies around the neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, there's Halloween's gonna be two behind us. Yeah, and Halloween has been, you know what I mean? So it's like there are families with kids, and so that's and yeah, our neighbor has fucking three or four kids, and and all those houses that don't have kids in them are just old people who their kids are adults. Literally, that's it, you know. So yeah, this kind of weird rental house in the middle, no with no, you know, family in it, it's just like kind of annoying, which is Yeah, no, it's it sounds like he he's just an idiot, he doesn't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, whatever. He's I get that passive income, you know. But no, man, that's a legit like a traumatic experience. Even I would say that even if you were alone cleaning the car out, and that happened, like that. It's very traumatic. You have no idea what could or will happen, yeah. Exactly. And that's what the the trauma of that is is you're put in a position where you're no longer in charge.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

And you're kind of hopeless with it. And I don't mean hopeless, like you're a punk bitch and he'd totally kick your ass. That's true, but I mean you're hopeless in like no decisions change this. You are a punk bitch, he would take you. I get that, yeah. Especially if he's sex military for sure. Well, even if he wasn't, you're just you know any man could probably take you out of the size. It's just that idea of like you're that level of hopelessness.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

That's scary. It's the chaos of the moment. Yeah, it's terrifying. You have no idea. Yeah, yeah. So it's very, very scary. Then you add your fucking families there. Yeah, that's the worst thing ever, man. I'm sorry that happened to you.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

No, it's okay. And Kira did a great job of getting Leo out of there, and he didn't know what was going on, you know. We we were a little worried he was picking up on it a little bit, but you know, other than that, we were just like, Yeah, the guy's just having a problem. So these you know the cops are coming to help him out. And yeah, I'm just glad they didn't kill him, you know. And and the cops asked if we wanted to press charges or something, but I'm like, no, he didn't do anything. Yeah, you know, and he's already having a bad enough time.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

I mean, you you s you still did call the cops, which is well, that's the whole thing too, is like, and if we want to get belligerent Nicky B here, you know, I don't know anyone who says all cops are bastards who has children, it's only single people who don't have families. A lot of times.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

I know exactly what I I'm picking up what you're putting down.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah, which I mean this isn't helping my Republican image. And look, do I believe that most cops are shitheads? Absolutely. I don't trust cops. But guess what? When a guy with a fucking knife and is bleeding, and I have my near three-year-old next to me, you're fucking right, I'm calling the services. What I'm gonna go try to ask him if I can fucking help him, I can't help him. The guy can't even help himself. He's literally stabbing himself almost to death.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

No, you're supposed to call a uh a 29-year-old social worker to go and talk to him.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

Get fucked. Yeah. And I know that, you know, people who uh who are younger than me and who are, you know, single had a breakup a couple years ago. They just I'm just trying to describe you. I'm just kidding. But no, you know, I know a ton of fucking liberally minded people who would be friends or family members of mine who would be like, oh God, you call the cops. Like, get fucked. You don't you cannot relate until you are fucking in that situation. And I think from you have a family. You, you're a kid.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

If I'm alone, I would probably still call the cops because the part you said he's going to other yards, he's going to other houses, there's a there's a a a dog sitter across like there's kids around everywhere. In my head, that's a chaos environment where he's either gonna hurt somebody or God forbid, he knocks on one of these doors and someone's gonna blast him through the door.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, exactly. Could go to the opposite way.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

If you don't get him out of here, someone's getting hurt. Him or someone else, it's it's inevitable.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Because also, if there's a dude kicking and banging on a door with a knife in his hand, someone's not crazy to shoot him through the door.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

No, of course not.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

So, like, that's why I would be like, no, yeah, you gotta call the cops and get this out of here.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah, something bad's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

This has to like be done with now because something really bad's gonna happen. Yeah. To somebody, him or someone else. I totally get that. Because while you're telling the story, it's like, what would I do in that situation being single versus when I was in a relationship? I also think like, what would my dad do? And that's the funny thing, is like that goes sideways quick. My dad is like, nah, we're gonna have words. Yeah, exactly. He's gonna, and I'm like, ah, you know, because you don't know what that leads to. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 33:42

So, like well, and the thing is too, like, you know, once we saw him on the stretcher and we got the other information, we're like, oh yeah, he was stabbing himself. Yeah, but when he first comes out and he's screaming, you don't know, and he has a knife and he has blood on him, he could have killed someone in his fucking house. You know, literally. I don't I literally have no idea. So of course, anybody, whatever. I don't like cops either, but guess what? I mean, I got my family to protect, and I'm as William says, I'm a pussy bitch. Yeah, so you know, and we're we're close to the sheriff's office, and they didn't kill him. So that's I think that's commendable on them. Exactly. So that's good on them. They actually performed life-saving things on him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Um, so we'll see when he moves back in in two weeks, and the cops come back and shrug and go, I don't know, he pays rent, man. What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_02 34:27

No, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

That's where it's like.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

They're not even gonna be, you know. Hey, looking studying me some Frank Castle.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, anomalies happen. You didn't call the cops on all those trucks that are parking out, and the cops actually did the job you expected them to do. Yeah, stranger things have happened. Yeah, exactly. It happens, everyone's in rare form.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yep. Yeah, so yeah, a lot of those folks don't have families. And just wait, you know, once you have a kid, this is why it happens. This is why your butthole tightens when you have children. Yeah. Because something changes in you where you gotta keep this little person alive. And oh, if that involves calling things that you may not have called back in your 20s, trust me, you're gonna fucking do it. Or you're a bad parent. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It well, it I think it's the um get it out of here. I don't care how. I care about him. Yeah, I care about my kid, I don't care about anything else. Yeah, get it out of here. I feel bad for the guy, but I don't want him here. You know, it it's it's yeah. That I totally get that concept. That's not a crazy concept.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

I have a duty to protect my child. Doo-doo to protect my child, and that guy, it sucks. The system has failed him, whatever the fuck is going on with him, it it's genuinely terrible. But I don't have that's he's not my kid. Yeah, yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Yeah. So no, it's it's an easy thing. And I'm glad they didn't kill him. It's an easy decision to make for you to go just everything else go away, please. You know what I mean? Yeah, uh a dog not on a leash at a park and you're a kid, you're like, everything go away. I just see my kid okay. Yeah, like you're like, I don't I don't want to talk to you about how great of a trainer you are with your 120-pound dog. Yeah, which I don't I don't care. Which you're not, exactly. Which all right, just everything go away. That's I I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Let me let's lean into the red a little bit here. And that's my other, besides like a bunch of cars, uh-huh. Yeah, is when I'm going on runs out on the trails out here. Everybody has their dogs off on a leash, which you're not supposed to. And all the dogs always run up to you, and every owner is like, oh, sorry, they don't usually do that. Every one of them. So it's like, dude.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Well, he did. Well, he did so fucking do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah, he did now. You are not a good trainer. Yeah. You you know, and I know that you guys didn't do the work because then the dog ran up to me.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Even after you called their name.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Anytime someone does the oh, he doesn't normally do that. I want to say you're never allowed to say it again because he just did it. You understand you can't say that again.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

And I want to I I want to carve it in your arm that you're not allowed to say it again. Because I know you're gonna leave and say it next time.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Like that's and that's where my line of like this is and this is and I I genuinely love dogs, grew up with dogs.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

I'm the only person in my family who doesn't have a dog. I don't like them. No, I like them. I like dogs, but they are dogs, they're dumb dumbs. And if you are fucking dumb, which most people are, and they don't properly train them, which takes real fucking work, genuine work to train a real dog, which it happens all the fucking time. One in 50 people I see will have their dog and be like, say this, and it's like the military shit, the dog is really good at it. But all those other fucking idiots can't do it whatsoever, and they always act they always know they're guilty because the dog runs up to me and they're like, and I wouldn't bitten.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

I have been running. They were not specifying a gender, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 38:10

No, it it is it's men and women, it's men and women, it's it's it's there's yeah, it's 50-50, really, uh at least around in my neighborhood. But yeah, I've been bitten by a fucking dog while I've been running. So it's just like and they do it all the time, and all it does is like, dude, again, this is the thing that bugs me about these type of people. It's like if the dog bites me, whatever, I don't want it to bite my face. I all I always think of that. I'm like, I always put my arm in front of my face. If a dog attacks me, it can mangle my arm, whatever the fuck, and I'm gonna beat the shit out of it. You're gonna try your fucking best, but kick its ass. But the issue is it's not the dog's fault, it's the human's fault for being a dumb shit, just like this fucking renter guy, this psychotic guy. It's just like, God damn it. And really, they're like they get embarrassed about it because they know they did something wrong, which I enjoy. I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, you're gonna feel the shame. Not that it's gonna be train their dog or something, but at the same time, it's like, guys, if the dog attacks me and it's bad enough, they're just gonna put your dog down. Yeah, they have to kill your dog, nothing happens to you, you fucking moron. And they'll be mad at you. Yeah, exactly. And this innocent animal is gonna be fucking killed for no fucking reason because you're a dipshit. So yeah, it really fucking annoys me. And the one time I got bit, the fucking owners were like horrified, and I literally like wiped my leg. And I'm like, There's no blood, you're good. Yeah, and I just like went back on the run.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Like a right cunt nick. I was like, There's no blood, you're good.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah. Did I tell you uh growing up when I lived in Odessa, the neighbor across uh beside us, they uh they had a big pit bull mix in their yard. Used to feed it gunpowder because they used to do dog fights with it. Oh my god. So the family, my family was always like, never, ever go in their backyard. Yeah, Jesus, fuck you up. Yeah. Guess who uh they always elected to go in the backyard to get the balls when they'd go over the fence. You? Yep. Every time. Little six-year-old William in the backyard with a dog they'd feed gunpowder to because it kills brain cells and makes them more progressive. I'm always back there just being like, I don't know, guys. So that is a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Humans are the worst, bro. Yeah, god damn it, I hate that so much. Yeah, that's the same. Dogs, human beings don't deserve dogs. Like, we're just too stupid.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

I don't like them. They bugged me. Yeah, I don't know. You don't have to earn it with them. You don't have to earn it. They just love it.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Well that's why you cats are easier, and you you can yeah, you've got to earn it. Yeah, which I I really like. By respecting boundaries, yeah, and they just go do their own thing. And yeah, it's introvert-extrovert kind of stuff, you know what I mean. But it's not their fault that that human beings are so fucking stupid. But they shouldn't be so nice to us just off the bat.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah. But yeah, all right. They're servants, yeah. And we're the servants, slayers, dog, that's the whole thing, yeah. And I like that. Yeah, you like being a sub.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Two cat, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I know they are cute.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

Because you feel the love better. I'm like, oh man, I earned this. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Um, but yes, enough about our dramatic neighborhood and me being a conservative father. How are you, William? How's the mental headspace?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Mental headspace is fine, same, okay, but uh manageable. That's the problem, is I don't know how to like nothing's different. I'm just not uh just not losing. I think I always make the joke I'm living with instead of dying of like AIDS in the 90s. That's that's that's you know, yeah, that the headspace is um I'm like uh exhausted from the fixation and rumination and the it was everything was so heightened. It's all still there, but I'm just like, I don't know, man. I guess it is what it is, sort of thing. That's kind of I don't know. It's hard to explain. It is, it's hard to explain because I think so much of it is based on things that are out of my control, like what causes it, what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking. And in therapy, that was part of what we discussed is uh we discussed medication, we discuss things like that, but then it comes to the um I can do bad faith arguments and I can do weird logic loops. I mean, you know, I'm uh I'm I'm I'm I'm good for an argument. I'm good for a deposition of it. Exactly. So then it comes to like I'm legally defending why I should be allowed to do something. Okay, you know what I mean? Like I'm making a case for guys, maybe it's not such a bad idea. Maybe you should let me make you know what I mean? And it's it's such a bad faith argument because I'm rejecting anything that's not for that claim. Of you go, well, what about this? And I go, I'm not thinking about that right now. So it's pretend doesn't matter because it doesn't support my cause right now. And so I'm just omitting all these things, so it's not an honesty, so it's just exhausting to be in that head space with it because yeah, that it's it's which doesn't help with the self-hatred, I'm sure. That's a funny thing you say, because that I brought up today. We talked about that, and I asked her, I was like, me and you go round and round about this of uh self-hatred, self deprecation. I think self hatred's uh hyperbolic. I know what you're saying, but I asked her, I was like, Do you really think I hate myself? She's like, not even close. Like the you it's the I hate. Hate how I feel or I hate how I think. Sure. But I don't hate myself.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Okay. That's good.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Cause it's um, I don't really hurt myself. Like we said, like I still exercise, still care about how I look, I still have certain things I'm upholding, I'm still like indulging in things that make me feel good or happy on my time. There's a certain level of uh lack of self-destruction where I'm still holding the line for things that are only meaningful to me, not just an exterior. But it's uh I I think what I struggle with is yeah, I don't like how I think and I don't like how I feel. That's very different from I don't like me.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

There's uh I don't I don't know what it fully means if I had to say, are there moments where I hate myself? It's like I don't think so. It's tough. It's a it's a tough thing to talk about because it's hard to put into words for sure those feelings because I can like at times be like, oh, you're such a freaking idiot. Like you're so stupid right now, or uh shame. Sound like Stevie from Eastbound and Dallas. Fucking idiot. Um, it's easy to like shame spiral and like self-deprecate. I think that's different though. I think so too. I think it's different.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

I think so too.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

You know, I don't think you hate yourself. I think you're hard on yourself, I think you're judgmental.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

But I don't think you hate yourself.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

No, I I don't know. I don't know. Probably not. Yeah, because I feel yeah, I do stuff that's good for me and I seek out, you know, those things that make me happy and all these kind of things too. But I think everybody does that.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Not everybody.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

There's a lot of people that don't.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

So quote 30 Rock, let me try this meth I've been hearing so much about. You know, like there's a lot of people that are self-destructive. My neighbor that was puking at seven years. That's true, that's true, very true. I think you see your value even when you're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

But I do dislike myself sometimes. Yeah. But yeah, but yeah, hate, no, I don't hate anything. You know, I hate things, I think.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

I'm tricky with hate, I'm tricky with rage, anger. Like I'm not an angry person, so I I know I don't use those emotions correctly.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't know if I well, I really dislike some stuff, but yeah, hate. I mean, he hates it's it's hard to quantify people.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

So yeah, I don't know if I could hate myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's hard to quantify people. Yeah, yeah. For madmen, I'm still watching madmen, the line that really wrecked me, where I was like, I gotta take a break. I gotta pause this for a little bit. Just Don Draper eating with his uh daughter Sally at a diner, and they're having an out because he's not honest with her, and they're struggling because she saw him be uh um unfaithful. Oh yeah, and it really fucked with her. And while they're at the diner, he opens up and he he's being honest with her, so they're connecting, and she's saying a little bit about herself, and she just rolls her eyes and goes, I'm just too many people. And it shook Don where he was like, Oh shit, my daughter said that. He's like, I've never felt more related to somebody, but just an aside for his daughter, like 13 years old, 14 years old to go.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

That thing he's trying too many people, the thing he struggled with his whole life, and now it's reflected unintentionally in his daughters.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, that's brilliant. It's like, god damn it. That's so good. Yeah, just that concept, I'm too many people. Yeah, that's heavy shit. Yeah, I love that. Which um I know I've quoted this, I know I quoted this when I was uh struggling the first time, not this time, but the last time I was struggling, and it relates to this episode with some stuff is I know it's from a poem and it's from a song, is it's not a person who dies, it's worlds die inside us. That idea that like when you fall in love, is that Star Trek, you're creating worlds with that person. That's a different world now. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like the person dies, they go off, they live another life, you're reality. That world dies.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

And I was thinking about that so much with uh some of the stuff I'm going through that I don't want to get into. We don't talk about that, Nicholas. Okay, but it's also um this episode because I have trouble fully grasping the difference from many worlds and multiverse. This show is discussing a many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and quantum physics.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

I don't know if there's a difference.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

There is, there's a very big difference, and he said so at the the the pilot of this episode one, where he goes, I don't like the idea of a multiverse. The concept of a multiverse is every different decision, every different thought is an entirely different world, and it's so far away. It's a way of explaining the universe, okay, not the order of the world. Many worlds is, and they use um they use certain ideas with it. It's the idea of every decision you can or could make, that's a different reality.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

So every world, those are different realities. There's only one true, honest reality, which is the action you did take. So the concept is that Schrdinger's cat. There's a cat in a box, whatever. The idea is you don't know what's in the box. The cat is either dead or alive because there's poison in the box if it happens. Many worlds says when you're not viewing the cat inside the box, the reality of it being alive and dead, those are both truths. Yeah. The minute you open the box and see it alive, that is now the truth. That is the absolute.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of explained in the the light slit thing lecture in this episode.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Yeah, and that's where they started arguing, and I think that's what Alex Garland, in my opinion, very beautifully visually illustrated is all these decisions until the one happens. And he does it with uh Katie leaving the lecture hall. Yeah, and it's the all different versions of her. She drops her paper, she makes a call, she stops at a different step. Yep. But then he only talks to one of those Katie's and one conversation. That's the one that happened, that's the reality. Yeah, so all of those worlds are worlds, but this is the one.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

And it's the same that he does. He does it again with the car wreck.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

We now know this whole Amaya thing is his daughter died because he was calling and talking to his wife on the phone. And she got distracted, missed a stop sign. And she got hit and she died in a car wreck. Yep. And he shows maybe he doesn't call. Maybe the call gets dropped quicker. Maybe they didn't run the stop sign. Maybe they stopped. Or maybe the accident happened a different way. And it wasn't that bad. It's all those uh variations, those aren't different universes actively happening right now, which is the multiverse. Those are all real worlds of options, and then you lock into the reality, which is what did happen.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

And so now the argument that he's having is determinism will tell me I'm off the hook.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

If there's no other worlds where it didn't happen, it had to happen. It wasn't my decision to call. Yeah. I had to call. That's the only uh outcome here is I had to call and I had to distract her.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

This was the joke I had in my head with this, is I reject the idea we've been talking about when we talk about God. I think I would have an easier time comprehending a creation god more than I have understanding quantum physics. This is too hard for me to fully grasp. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know, man. If you told me the sun made everything and it's a god and it has some form of sentience, I think I can understand that easier than this. Yeah. That uh the incomprehensible of a creation god. I'm like, I don't know if that's that incomprehensible. This seems pretty fucking incomprehensible. No, and I mean I can get there quicker, I think.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Well, I mean, and that that goes to just show how that why that simplification of you know making gods the elements and all this kind of stuff, like the ancients did, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Yeah, or personifying it.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Yeah, personifying it uh to relate, making it human. Yeah, it's to so we can comprehend it.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

That's how I would comprehend exactly.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

No, and that's how people do comprehend it. Yeah, and when I say human beings couldn't comprehend a deity that could create the universe, it's because of quantum shit like that. It's because in our little brains we can't think, we cannot qu understand what a what kind of creature it would take to make the atoms that make this fucking microphone in front of it. Like we're too stupid. We we don't have the comprehension ability to do so.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Because it it it goes back to to my head. It's in Bloodborne and Elden Ring, it's in Prometheus, which is I would say in a movie I don't love, one of the best things I think Ridley Scott ever did is there's the moment where the engineer wakes up, David sees his creator, says something in his language, and it just rips his head off. Where it's that idea of if you put me in a room with God, honestly, the first thing I would probably say is why. Which it just cancels everything out. It's the idea of I have to talk to you like a person, and I have to understand your human emotions and human decisions on a thing that's not human.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Because that's all you can relate to, because you're human. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:01

It's only within my framework would any of this exist. Exactly. I make the joke, it's like that's why I I get mad when people are like, no, I saw an alien. Oh, I don't know, did it look like a human with weird proportions? Exactly. You're still thinking in terms of your brain, or was it a bug but bigger?

SPEAKER_02 54:18

That's why I never ever trust people who trip on mushrooms because they talk about the same shit. Yeah, and it's just like, yeah, because you heard people talk about that shit on mushrooms. So your brain, your subconscious log that away, you fucking moron. It's it's it's it's pulling from something else, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

I don't know, it's just pulling what you've already related to, a tree, uh uh all of that, and then to bring it back to the secular is yes, a burning bush is what God was to you in the time. Because you can you can wrap your head around the physical around you. You can I get all of that, and that's where the limitation of the mind is. But yeah, when we start talking about like all this determinism stuff, which I don't remember a lot of this in the show, and I'm glad me and you last episode talked about this. That I feel like I tracked, he doesn't fully believe this, he wants to. That's why when you showed him the multiverse of his daughter, yeah, it broke him down because he he wishes he could say, I know that's not mine, therefore I'm not emotionally reacting. It doesn't work that way because what you truly believe and what you're truly reacting to, most times when we say what we believe, it's what I want to be represented as believing or what I wish I believe.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

It's never really on the honest answer. And I think that's um uh I struggle. Me and you just talked about it, and I think I kind of danced around deflected, is it it comes back to like if you asked me what do I want out of life? I I don't know if I would be answering you honestly. I think a percentage of it is gonna be what I think I need to be saying, so it puts you at comfort and ease, what I should be saying, like a goal of mine. I don't know if I would answer it just truthfully. I think it's gonna be a mix of how I want to be represented, how I want to project myself in this moment of like, no, this is what I want to view myself as. This is my goal for future William to achieve. A lot of that is gonna be projecting out an image. And I you are not alone in that. I think everybody. I think that's human. Yeah, I think everybody's saying that. But that's uh that's what this show now comes back to is when he talks about determinism, he's projecting, he's literally saying, I fucking hope this is real. Yeah, I hope it's determinism because then now it I'm not being judged. Well, it's I'm forgiven, just like the thing the speech I gave to Sergei, yeah. Essentially, nature's gonna say to me by going, It's not your fault you called your wife and had her killed. Yeah, yeah. Your hands are off of this. It had to cause and effect. This started a thousand years before you pick that phone up.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

Yeah, and it's your conscience is clear. And we've kind of touched on it through Alex Garland's previous work. But his ability to explore these very complex subjects about human beings who excel at these complex issues that humanity has has tried to tackle spaceflight, artificial intelligence, quantum mechanics, it always comes back to not necessarily our hubris, but how we're always running from our trauma. And no matter how fucking smart we are, no matter how many revolution-ary things we create, artificial intelligence, all these kind of things, it always comes back to our animal base instincts, which we cannot outrun, that end up fucking us. And and Dev's is just a fucking brilliant portrayal of that.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Let's also not forget we we've already tracked this with his other movies and we've made this joke, but this show's not over, but we can maybe even jump to a spoiler to say if this is Alex Garland, we're gonna talk about the power of love. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it we don't I s I literally, I'm not saying for the episode and for the sake of the podcast, like I don't know what the point of devs is still. I don't know what the actual goal of what he's trying to fully accomplish is. It certainly feels like it's very, very much tied to he loves his daughter and misses her.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

He hasn't said his wife's name. I don't know her name. I know Amaya's name. Yeah, I know the daughter, I know the statue, I know the visual that he's been looking at, I know the the bus wraps. Like there's something of his love for his daughter that's feeling people dying.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

That Russian guy got his head snapped under a tire because of how much Ron Swanson loves his daughter. Yep. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Like this is still tethered to love. That's what's so brilliant about uh whatever Allison Pill's character watching these things of like the things you have done all stem from this moment. Yeah, you have ruined these people's lives. That's why I love watching Sergey and Lily on the couch and him admitting to her that he loves her and all this kind of stuff, and she's just watching, and like we this is the first time we've ever seen her get emotional at anything. Yeah, and she does a couple times in this episode. Yeah, it's just like we ruined people's lives because his life was ruined by this happening to him. It's so brilliant. I'm too stupid to understand any of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

It's tough for me.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

I don't it's very tough for me, and I think that's why a lot of this hasn't stuck with me because I I I need to read into it a little bit more. But yeah, my brain struggles to comprehend a lot of the stuff, and I'm like, and I know what happens at the end, but I'm like, but what actually happens at the end? That's what I'm saying. I know the visual, yeah, yeah. I don't actually know what happens. So this time I think it's gonna make more sense. And and I never I didn't put the fucking multiverse stuff or the many world stuff with either one uh of it all the into the filmmaking. I never realized the filmmaking until this episode. I'd have only seen these once when it aired, but I was like, oh, this is great, just this visual reinforcement of of what they're talking about. But yeah, just his ability to just completely nail us where we are this weird contradictory creature where we can create these insane things that they don't defy logic, they are logic, they are defined by logic in terms of like cell phones, artificial intelligence. If you think of all the cool stuff that would look like magic a hundred years ago, yeah, like somebody did that. I think of that about that all the fucking time. A person invented something that is in your cell phone, a technology that allows you to fucking connect your headphones or something like that. A person invented that. That's cool, and your phone also does a million other fucking things, and we can go fly around the moon, we can do all these cool things, and people create those things, but at the same time, on the other side of the coin, we are so emotionally driven by the things that happen to us, our connection to other people, and the bad shit that happens to either us or those people that it completely drives us to fucking destroy ourselves sometimes. And Alice Garland is extremely interested in that. Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Yeah, it's it's almost like fucking love's really important. I don't know. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

I know, and it's almost like it's almost like it's really important to have in your life. Everyone deserves love, and everyone, you know, most people have people in their life that love them, William. Maybe just not in the way that you're looking for right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

That's always the struggle, that's the forever struggle is to what limit and when. Yeah. The when is also tricky. Yep. Right person, wrong time. Maybe. I don't know. Wrong place, wrong time. Sure. All of that is it, but it it goes back to what if I called her five minutes earlier? What if I call what if I didn't call her? What if like the timing changed? What if she took a different route home and she wasn't at the stop sign? And she had the right way.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

No, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Like everything of timing, location, the people, the fucking temperature, like so much goes into any moment. You come into trauma, you come into something that bizarre. Your your story. What if you just left the the kid's seat in whatever vehicle it was in? You you you could have missed the whole scenario. Yeah, exactly. You could have been in your truck sooner, went and got your in-laws, and you could have been seated when that guy was in the street.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

What if Leah was being extra uh two-year-old and didn't want to put his shoes on, Louis C.K. style, and you guys fought for five extra minutes. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

And then we'd see it happen from our house and be like, wait, what the hell? Like, uh, I'm not going out there. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

You know, like there's there's so many variables to all of that, but um, that's uh that's me deflecting again, not wanting to discuss love and lack of to put it back on you as an example for somebody else. But yeah, I mean it's so funny that like we're we're back here again is like how much humanity's creating technology to just figure out our souls and our place in the universe, yes, and how all the decision making is um if if I'm not doing this alone, I have love, and that's that's gonna that's gonna drive me. I'm gonna kill the fucking military because I'm in love. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Like I will destroy other people's lives. Yeah, I'll do everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, yeah. It's gonna go blow the sun up. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's cool. This is a really good episode. This is a really, really good episode. And I'd forgotten all about it. Like I forgot most of this one. I knew I I remember the car wreck thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

Yeah, once I saw that, I was like, oh yeah, I remember this, but I forgot about the lecture entirely. I forgot about her watching everything. Yeah, yeah, I forgot so much of this. But it's very cool, and I love the static effects and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, really like that just to remind us that she's the one doing the watching.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:40

I have a question for you. Yeah. What the hell are they doing with that shirker cube and the rat and the clock?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

I think they're they're trying to replicate it on a quantum level. So they're trying to use whatever the fucking computer's ability just to to recreate it down to kind of calibrate, maybe. I I don't know. I don't know if it's a calibration tool or what it is, but it's yeah, it that that would make sense. Um Wow, William understands computers more than I do. No, this is bad. No, it's I didn't realize how fall I'd fallen or how far I'd fallen. Holy fuck, man. Uh no, but I yeah, that's you you're probably right. But it's to see how well it can replicate it down to like the fucking atom. Yeah, right. I think that's what it's doing. But in terms of like what she's doing to bring the quantum computer mouse back to life, no fucking idea what that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Um which is a fascinating idea of they're doing it with a dead animal. Yeah. To go back, I guess, the the the idea of like, okay, on its you know, its rails, let's go back to the the the alive part. Kind of that's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

I think because to me it's it's level complexity. So you have organic, inorganic, organic, inorganic. Yeah, exactly. And then the organic thing is extremely complex, but it's dead, so it's easier to try to replicate. Um, but then when they expand out and they're replicating him and all that kind of stuff, you know, that's like it's cool. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Yeah, well, I was watching it, I was like, that's nuts.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

And it just looks cool. It's on this crazy gold fucking table. It's like this is awesome. And this no clue. We have the colors, which we introduced the red, the red, green, green. Yeah, RGB, uh, which is cool, which we saw at the intro of whatever episode two or whatever. I really like that. The visuals are great. But yeah, I need director's commentary on this shit. I'm too scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

I would love that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

I gotta look it up if there is something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

I would absolutely love a walkthrough from Alex on this show. Yeah, that would be amazing. He's giving interviews about it, or like I haven't found anything. It's tough finding stuff on uh this show more than just the press run. Because the press run, you know, you get your three stories, you tell your three stories 50 times. For sure. It's definitely different.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

But yeah, I need some kind of physicist breakdown of devs because yeah, I just I'm dumb.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

There's just so much going on. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's it still just feels so good to be in the hands of someone capable as a good writer. Oh, yeah. Because there's so much going on that a lesser writer would soak it up and lean into the fancy jargon. That was the thing that I keep thinking about is what makes him a good writer, not just having the the concepts of the the show and what it's about, but it's how he discusses it. We talked about this with J Dave, we talked about it with Josh that he doesn't overstay his welcome with this stuff. I was just watching that lecture hall episode uh scene, and I was like, I think a poor writer, now I have an example, but a a lesser quality writer, that scene's twice as long. Not shorter because they go, I'm out of my depth. They go twice as long and they get piffy with it, and they start monologuing about it, and like, you know what I mean? It will oversay it's welcome to go, guys, sit down. I'm really fucking smart, and I want you to hear how smart I am. Yeah, he he does just enough to get the point across and get out. And I I I don't want to walk away from when he's a great writer because those are some of those moments that I think he does really well as a writer. Oh, yeah. Is he's like, We're just we're just doing what's necessary, and it's not about me. He never stunts, he never shows off. There's never a scene where he goes, Don't get it fucking twisted and like you know, I need you to remember who I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

It's all functional. Exactly. Yeah, it's all functional. That scene is a great example of just how functional a variety is because one, he's explaining to us, the audience, the basics of quantum mechanics. And two, we're learning why Allison Pill's character, why can I never think of it? Emily or something like that. Katie Katie. I think it's Katie. Yeah, why Katie uh, or we're seeing the first time that Forrest tries to recruit Katie, and we're getting actually some glimpse into like maybe how smart she is and whatever her contempt is. And while we don't understand what the fuck she's upset about necessarily, yeah, even though the the lecturer uh kind of explains it, it just comes off as like this it's it's this dual-layered thing of we're we're witnessing these multiple, it's multifunctional, right? So yeah, it's just it's it's very smart. And yeah, a lesser writer would ramble on about it like me and you know, fuck it up like I am with this explanation of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

I would too. I that's that's one of those scenes where I would like whatever research I do, I'm cramming it in that scene. So you know I did the research. I hope you think I'm smart. You know what I mean? Like I want I want something memorable out of that scene. I I would go way too long on that scene.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

Yeah, there is yeah, there are yeah, that is a thing that and Jenkins is really good at this. He's very confident in his own abilities. He's like, and he's always like, I know I'm good at this, and I know that I'm smart, and I know I'm not whatever, you know what I mean. And I think Alex Garland is is very much like that too, where it's just like he just knows he's smart. He doesn't, he's not trying to prove anything, but he's not like being boastful about it. No, he just uses it and he's just interested in things and he just does it, you know what I mean? I don't know. There's something to that confidence, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:43

It's it's uh it's a weird confidence without the ego, yes. Which yes, I mean, I'll I'll I'll probably relate it for the the film school crowd of like that's kind of a Kubrick thing, and I think that's why Kubrick comes off cold. Yes, is because I feel the same of he's confident, but there's no ego to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

He's like, we're just doing what we're doing. He's just fascinating and stuff. He's fascinated and exploring these specific things very accurately.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:11

And he'll just show you something and not explain how he feels about it. Yeah. That's why a movie like Clockwork Orange is as disorienting and disturbing as it is, because you can still miss it. Yeah, he's showing it to you just kind of matter of fact, and he doesn't stop the movie all the way to go, okay, remember they're bad guys. Like he's not, and that that is uncomfortable, especially for a modern audience. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Yeah, that's a great poll.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

Yeah, yeah. It's I don't have that. I think and that's uh that confidence. Yeah, that's uh that came up in therapy when we were discussing trying to pull me out of the the pit I'm in is to remember of like, well, you have goals, there's things you wanted, right? Like again, it's not you're you shouldn't be alive here because not would make would bump people out. You should want to be and you should have things to go for. And it's easy to have the argument of like, yeah, but maybe not. Like maybe I'm not capable, maybe, you know, and I know it's always hard to have those talks when it feels so personal because that's where it comes into I'm being self-hating or self-deprecating. So it's like throw it to what if my dream in life was to be a basketball player? Maybe I don't have the fundamentals, I could learn them, I could devote my time to getting there. They're all skill sets, it's athleticism. I can eat and train and exercise my body. I was like, so it's not out of the realm of possibility. What if I don't have the drive to do it? What if I don't have the inner drive to wake up at four o'clock to exercise two hours before work? What if I don't have the the mental constitution to eat a strict diet or to always practice a thing even when I hate it? And then it turns into like, what if I'm weak and it breaks me mentally of like I'm over it? I'd rather walk away and give up than fully commit. And that's where everyone would say that's the difference from average and great, is these people that don't walk away when it sucks and hurts. And that's why there's only so many people at a high level of anything, is because you gotta work through something that the average person goes, I I guess I don't want it bad enough. That's not crazy. Like there's that's most people would look at something and go, I don't want it bad enough. I don't want to be CEO, I don't want to be in the MBA, I don't want to it would be cool, I don't want it bad enough to devote my literal life to it comes down to what you actually want. And to what extent. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:56

You know, because that's thinking because it you may not actually really want that thing. Because it might just be idealized in your head or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

It's it but it's also like And dreams, you know, that's not life always. True. And that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:09

It's an idea, yeah. It it's it's an idealized version of something.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:13

But it's also not crazy to say you truly, really want something, you just don't have the personality and the mental makeup to achieve it if it's really hard to achieve.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

But I don't know that if you really want it then. So then that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:28

I don't know, because I don't know if those are tethered the same way. If you're if you're a coward naturally, just as your disposition. Yeah, why am I picking on you for the whole time? If you're if you're a punk pussy bitch coward like you, that doesn't get in the way of a dream or a goal. That's an obstacle that is bigger than you on your own. It just because you want something doesn't mean you're gonna overcome everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

But there's also a psychology behind that, and so it's also about trying to learn why, why you feel the way you do, why you feel like you're not good enough to achieve this. Why don't you want that thing? Why do you want that thing? It's uh I think that's what I always try to, you know, or that's that's where my mind turns is to the underlying psychology of it. Where does that come from? Yeah. So, like, you know, especially we've talked about this with like the filmmaking and all this stuff. And Dan, when he was on for Evangelia, he brought it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

That was one of my favorite things we've done is being a very good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Yeah, but are you just telling yourself that, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, yeah, it's tough, it's a tough conversation to have in terms of like quote unquote letting things go, but you can let them go for now, and I can try to be a functional human being and still do things that I enjoy, uh, you know, and and try to be successful in those things. But I do genuinely feel and I think there is a version of me who would be confident enough, you know, directing a film or something like that, or exploring that or whatever. But at the same time, me right now, that sounds fucking exhausting. And all those people who work in the film industry, I don't, I don't like that kind of lifestyle. Yeah, I can't help that I was raised by a blue-collar guy who wants to work fucking nine to five or whatever, and consistency is key because we don't like things of when they like change our schedule because we want to know what's happening next and all this kind of shit. I am my brain is wired this way due to my parents and due to my upbringing and and the the nature and nurture of it all. And I'm okay with that actually, because I don't want to go work fucking 12 hours on some on some kind of fucking film set or something. I'm okay. I don't want to do that. But every time I fucking watch a movie and I'm like, god damn it, I want to make something like that. And maybe I will eventually, but right now, that's not what I want, and that doesn't mean that I have failed. Like if I was a 20-year-old still and I thought about it that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:00

If you put that target on your back, it's easy to look at it as if it's a failure.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

Yeah, which but life is not a zero-sum game, it just isn't. No, and I've it's taken me years to realize that I didn't want to work on stuff unless I could make a living doing it. But that's fuck that's a waste of time. Yeah, that's what I just re I I've realized over the years, and it took a long time. It wasn't some big epiphany, it's just oh, I wrote this and I'm you know met a good artist and we collaborate well, and it's been this series of lucky events. Uh, and I'm just like, oh yeah, what and why wouldn't I be just doing this? Why haven't I been doing this for fucking years? Yeah, you know what I mean? But uh but I don't know. It's I I try to look at the underlying psychology of it all. I get it. Because saying something is so finite of like, oh well, you failed at your dreams or something like that. Well it's just like, yeah, but why did you want those dreams? And why don't you feel like you have the drive to do those dreams? What is the why behind it? Always what is the why behind it? And I can because there's there's no absolutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

No, it's especially in a long life, like everything's gonna because I I I think you're a good example of like you never made a feature film, but like you've worked on your shorts, other people's shorts, you you've done things adjacent close enough for you to come to the conclusion going, This ain't my medium. There's parts of this where I'm just like, this is I couldn't imagine this times 20, that many more people, this many more, blah blah blah. You go, ah, it's just not it sounds cool, but I actually don't, that's not my thing. Yeah, like it that only came through experience. Yeah, yeah. If you didn't have that experience, you might feel different about it. So, like, I I totally get that. That's where it's like, yeah, in time, all of these things change. I think I kind of see some of it as like the the personality makeup versus what you wish you had in life. Those I don't think always correlate. Sure. And that's why, you know, it we can we can take it off of the people in the room is like athleticism. I think there's certain personality mental traits you need to be athletically uh, you know, uh prosperous. Well, it could be talented.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:22

It could be a genetic thing too.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:23

A little bit of that, but I just also think just uh the the mentality and the drive and all of this is like you can't be a top athlete without a certain level of uh uh personal drive. Like you gotta work through pain, physical pain. You gotta work through uncomfortable timing and scheduling and all of those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:46

But as at the same time, it could also come natural to some people. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:50

Is there's something about that? So they don't even exactly what I mean. Is there's some people where going like, well, yeah, that's just what you do, it's part of it, and it's actually not the worst part. That's the easy part for me. Yeah, I'm I'm a natural uh I'm competitive. There's like plenty of people that just aren't competitive where they go, I hate competition. Yeah, that that falls into that athletic thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:14

But that's but that's also psychology, that's also comes from upbringing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

But that's what I'm saying, is like you don't choose those things. That's that's in you, that's in you, and naturally, if you're not competitive and you don't have a drive, but you're like, I wish I I get you can rewire to an extent, but like that's the thing of like all of these things. Uh take it back to being a father. There are self-centered people. There are. Oh, of course. I don't think every literal every person is equipped to being a modern father in raising a child in my terms of appropriately. Like, I don't think that is everybody. Sure. So is it crazy that there is someone going, I wish I could, I would like that, but I don't have all the makeup for it. Just because I want it doesn't mean I'm built for it and can grow into it. That's not always line that doesn't always line up.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:14

Yeah, yeah. I mean, in all of this, and I don't know if you'll hear it in listening back and editing and all this kind of stuff, but you're just placing limits on yourself. You are saying you are a stagnant, finite human being, and that is a negative, and you can never change.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

I would never no, and I even though I know it sounds like that. That's not how I believe all the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:37

I just think there's certain it's a deterministic thing where it's like it has been determined that I am this way and it's not gonna change. Possible, and I don't think I can change, therefore, I'm not gonna pursue these things.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

Therefore, I can't be happy. To an extent, and um Yeah, you're self-limiting. But am I wrong to say that I'm part of it's real?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:00

Yeah, that's the thing. Part of it's real, right? You're never gonna be an NBA player, that's real, but you could still do other things that make you happy. You could still find other niches. So, like using these hyperbolic examples doesn't help your case, and you use those because it helps you get a win.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Well, I'm trying I'm trying to keep it off of uh the bias in the room. When we talk creative, or if we talk family, or if we talk love, you know I'm talking about me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:28

And that's where I think you're gonna have a bias of going, uh don't say negative things. No, things can change and grow. Well, it it'll stop the conversation a little quicker than um, and that's why I'm saying it's like it's it's kind of with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:42

Because you've accepted things about yourself, or it sounds like you've accepted things about yourself that are negative traits and just saying, Oh, well, that's how it is, and nothing can ever change. So, whatever. So this is why I should not exist, or whatever the fuck it is. Well, you know, you said it not me.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

No, I I'm I'm not sure. That's what I think you're telling yourself. I'm half kidding. That is part of it because like let's if if if you wanna if you want to do it, it's the let's just say being uh being an artist of any creative endeavor. Uh-huh. Literally does not matter what kind. Uh-huh. I'm I'm sculpting in my attic like de God. Like, it doesn't matter. Being a creative artist, there is a certain level of confidence in yourself that you have to have just to simply finish a thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:35

Because you gotta look at it when it sucks and go, I still think it's worth finishing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:40

Or just I'll move on to the next one. Exactly. Artists do it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

There's a certain level of confidence you need.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Illustrator artists, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:49

All creative art, music, film, writing, there's no such thing as perfect, yeah. All of it, you have to have a certain level of confidence to actually commit and finish. Sure. You have to. So if today I don't have that level of confidence, sure. The the I'll meet you in the middle and say, today I can't be an artist.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:13

And you've been saying that for multiple years, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

For all the years that I don't have that level of confidence, you tell me that could change. You're not locked in. That doesn't mean you're dying at 80 years old without that level of confidence. It could grow through a million different things if that's your focus is to grow it. It could get there. I'm not without it now and forever not without it, right? That's that's what you're saying. Just because I don't have it today doesn't mean I'll never ever have it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:44

Yeah, and that and just because you don't have it today doesn't mean that it requires some kind of intense amount of focus to change. That's not true either. What does it take to change? Some of these things it would take, you know what I mean? Yeah, you have to get leg surgery to be an NBA player, whatever the fuck. But in terms of being an artist, you could just be yourself. Life is gonna change you. It doesn't matter, like the world changes you. You are not the same man, never steps foot in the same river twice. Yeah, it's not the same river, pulling it back to the same person. Exactly. No matter what you think about yourself, you today is different from you two weeks ago. That's not because you put in some kind of crazy focused effort or whatever, focus or something, it just naturally changes. Your body changes, your brain changes, the world changes, things happen around you. So you never know. And having confidence be a required skill, or however you're describing it, of or a requirement of being an artist, that is something that's your definition. That's something you made up. Yeah, but that's not necessarily true for other people, you don't know. Maybe not, it's just I think I'm close. It's your personal definition of it. Um, and you see people putting things out and then moving on as confidence, and maybe they don't see that as confidence. Maybe they wouldn't think that they'd be like, oh, I just I failed at that, so I'm gonna try to get another one. That's not confidence to them, where it looks like confidence to you from the outside. I get that. Yeah, it's just it's you only have your own subjective experience, you have your own subjective definitions and stuff. I just don't think life is as rigid as that. And you don't have to be open to experiencing those things necessarily, and you don't have to hyperfocus and and make it some kind of mandate or skill or training or something like that to develop into those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:40

I think some things you do though, if they don't come naturally or if if you do struggle with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:47

But that's a and all of this stuff too. Like and you're talking about me finding my medium and all this kind of thing. You are extremely confident in talking to people. Yeah, for years we've talked how much you like stand-up and all this kind of stuff. You're a fucking great orator, and literally all the shit that you're talking about is literally just the definition of fucking building an hour of stand-up. Yeah. Like that's literally it. So you know the answer to a certain extent. Maybe I'm and that's thinking we are always gonna be reverent to film and television and storytelling in this way, uh, this visual medium. We're always gonna love that. That doesn't mean, and because we haven't had it and we haven't been comfortable working in it now, because of a lack of confidence or whatever it is, whatever our psychology built that makes us not built to work in that world right now, that we're still gonna feel some kind of missing piece of like, fuck, I want to be part of that because it's so effective to us. Yeah, it's our favorite. We love it for it, it's amazing. Just because that's never gonna go away doesn't mean that you can't find artistic fulfillment through other things.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

And I agree, and that's why I talk about music, that's why I I try to draw, like it's you don't manage to stand up well because I'm not Well, I'm not doing anything in that world. I am trying music. I am trying to draw at home. I am doing certain things. And you're not doing the thing that you already are innately talented in. And all the other things I'm doing, I'm not doing for anybody else. It's in my little hole. I don't share it. And then comedy, you can't do it alone. I can only do it in front of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

Yeah, that's the point.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:25

So that's that that's the difference from what I am doing versus what I'm not, is um if I have to involve other people, I'm like, nah, I can't do that. Yeah. I'm not at that stage mentally where I think I'm I I could share something. And that's what that's part of the conversation it does take a little bit of confidence. It does take a little bit to be creative to say maybe just need a nudge. My thing's worth sharing. Well, there's a certain level of you can still be self-deprecating and go, I know it's a piece of shit and everyone's gonna hate it. I'm still putting it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:02

Well, there's a level of irony of we're literally recording and putting out a podcast. I know we have a certain amount of confidence. This is we're confident in what we're talking about. We are self-deprecating.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:12

This is my most creative endeavor I do, and this means a lot to me, no matter how many people are listening. And what do you use it?

SPEAKER_02 1:29:19

This means a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:20

Your voice.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:20

Yes. And you're talking to a lot of people who there is not one person that you have ever met that doesn't think you're funny. Every person shut up. Fuck you, not you.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:36

Not you. Don't do this to me. Fucking you.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:40

It's it's so true. Take the wrench because fuck him, that's why.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh seriously. And there's only been a couple people, and this happens all the time, to funny people, is simply like that motherfucker's annoying. But it's because they're fucking they don't vibe with them. I'm thinking people like Sinjin or something. Yeah, you know what I mean? But everyone thinks that you're funny, everyone thinks that you're a great talker, you can hold the fucking room, you know what I mean? Yeah. So like, and you are already confident in that. You're just not seeing it as an art form, you're not executing it as an art form necessarily, right? You're telling yourself a story that you're fucking locked out, and and being in a bad mental state is a different thing in terms of like that, definitely can affect ex exploring artistic endeavors, right? If you're in a bad place mentally and it's really things are really fucking hard, you're really down on yourself, you're struggling with the things that you're struggling with, you're struggling with busy work and all these kind of things. That's completely understandable of not wanting to pursue some sort of artistic endeavor. But as we have said on this podcast, and I think we kind of believe hyperbolically, like art and human expression is kind of the definition of what it is to be human, and and and kind of is one of the most important things of the human experience. And while we're here experiencing life, that's one of the things that makes it worth living, right? Is this artistic uh exploration?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:14

That is where and it's not all, but that's if there's two things that break my brain, is I can comfortably talk to you and say creating something and sharing something artistic with people, I think is the most important thing, only second or adjacent to having love in your life and feeling that level of connection.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:42

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:43

It doesn't matter for how long or what circumstances, but the fact that at a certain point I can look at myself and go, you don't have either. The two things you say are the most important things, the two things you say are the only reason why we've evolved for consciousness, and I'm not just an animal, and I don't have those two things, yeah, that can break my brain. Not to say, well, I'll never have how long do you have to go without?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:17

Yeah, right now you feel like you don't have them, and you feel like you haven't had them.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:20

If I said there's two purposes, then there is the literal definition of lack of purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:26

No, and that's that that's the most succinct version of what you're going through that you've said, I think currently, which I think is completely understandable, especially if you are locked into your own brain. And when you feel those things, you feel those things. It doesn't matter how many, you know, people try to tell you otherwise. But I get that being in that place is is a little is extremely difficult. Yeah. And I do think you have those things in your life, but not in the way that you want them. It doesn't matter that I love you. I mean, I hope it matters that I love you. My family loves you, and and your family loves you, even though as fucked up as they are, they do. Um, maybe not in the way that you want. Because again, it's the same thing if you know, if when your best friend tells you that you love them, that's not the same thing as a romantic partner telling you that you love them. Even though I've told you a bunch of times I don't want I don't love you in that way, even though you come to me all the time and ask me, ask me that I hopefully that I do. But it's you've been over this for decades.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:24

You can't keep for over 20 years getting mad at me for the mixed signals you send me saying I don't love you like that, and then you wear short, short pink shorts in front of me with your legs wide open.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:35

You literally have a hole.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:36

Yeah, exactly. Like, and then you throw it back to me going, I don't what are you doing? I'm not doing anything. That's not my fault. Hey man, I'm an original gaslighter. Yeah, I'm you see me at the edge, and then I cast it out, going, I'm gonna hail Mary, and you go, You totally should take more chances in life, William. You should. You if you feel it, you should act upon it. You should stop. You how many times you've told me to not hold myself back, and then I let myself out, and you go, What's wrong with you? Exactly. And then you throw me into shame and judgment, and then you tell me no wonder you're in such a dark place. The audacity for you to say, I hate myself, that I'm being self-hating, when I throw it out, and you go, What are you crazy? This is just how I dress, like a little slut. You dress like a little slutty, and then you go, What? This is just I'm in my house.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:29

So I I get coming from that place, and in terms of the artistic expression and all these kind of things, you do have that in your life in a way, not in the way that you want, not in the way that maybe feels fulfilling, because that's one of the struggles of being a naturally talented person as well. You do this shit easily, being funny, commanding a room, this kind of stuff, that comes naturally to you, so it doesn't feel like it does. You know what I mean? You are expressing yourself artistically on this podcast all the time by making fucking jokes. You do it at work all the time by making jokes, doing these things, holding a room, commanding these things, but it isn't your definition of it necessarily. You're not out or rating or something, it's just what you have done your entire fucking life, so it doesn't feel like you're doing it. So to me, the outsider's perspective, I see these things, I feel love for you, so I know that you're loved, but I I can't help you with the romantic love. We don't have to get into it again. We just did, but we just covered it, but shut down again. But in terms of artistic expression, you're just naturally talented like that. So it it's normal to you, and the artistic avenues that you've taken otherwise that aren't don't come as natural to you, music or something like that, learning an instrument or writing or whatever it is. You it's easy for especially the negative self-esteem brain to focus on those and be like, oh well, I'm trying on these things, but you're ignoring or maybe not acknowledging your natural talents that you are in.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:02

That's the thing that I referenced earlier is like I'm still in the headspace where I know I'm giving myself bad faith arguments. I know I can be around certain people in my life and go, they don't like me as much as I wish they did. Shepard, yeah, I know he told me to name the people that do anything. Well, so and so, so and so, so-and-so. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, get that out of here. I'm I'm in self-loathing. Where do you do it? Yeah, yeah. Stop countering. I'm I'm well aware of the counter-argument in the reality, but I'm still stuck in that loop of going, yeah, but what time we're on. Yeah. We're on the no one time. We're in absolute time here. If it's not the one I want, then it's nobody.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:48

It's the binary, it's exactly it's the black and white.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

And that's what I was saying is like that's where it it can turn, and that's where I am mentally, and that's where I was like, I am okay. Like, I'm I'm going through my days without as low as I was, but nothing's different, and now I'm in that headspace where I'm still making those arguments, yeah, and I haven't gotten all the way out of that. Yeah. And that's the exhausting, it that's the part that takes the energy because I'm just like, Judge. Because you're having the same argument over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:19

Yeah. And that's the thing. It isn't black and white, and a little bit of something can help the other thing. You're never gonna be in a completely healthy mental state. It's just not gonna happen. No, it's with your brain chemistry. Yeah, it's the same for me. I have my ups and my downs. Therapy has helped, medication has definitely helped, but I still have my ups and downs. It's never gonna be perfect. But you could still work on what you're good at, you could still step out on a ledge, not in the way that you think baby.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:53

It's audible in my journal. Not in the way you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:56

Someone read my notes app. But you could take a leap. Nope, that's not one either. I'm just kidding. I'm trying to find the good ones. But you could pursue this thing that you're naturally talented at that everyone believes you're starting around.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:10

You just start hanging out. Uh, it was one of the things that it it was what it was a positive and a negative. Like it fucked me up in the time, and then it's kind of helped keep perspective. Is I told her, I think I've said it, but I I was jokingly of like, sometimes I get confused. Sometimes I'm not sure if this is type two diabetes where it's like, I don't know, man, exercise, diet, take care of yourself, and you can get out of it, or if this is type one where it's like you're gonna live with this forever and you gotta check your levels. And she told me very openly, she goes, You are you have type one. Yeah, you for sure have type one. Absolutely. This isn't situational. This isn't because you had a breakup two and a half years ago. This is a breakout. This is uh no, it she she had that understanding of like yes, you will this is you uh for the foreseeable future, check your levels, yep, and you gotta take care of yourself. Yep, because it's it this is different, and I was just like, I remember hearing that and being like pissed and like god damn it. But there is a level of like, okay. Now you know, yeah, now I know, and so I can stop doing the whole oh, it's because I didn't walk, it's because I ate Chipotle too much. Yeah, it's like they don't help, but there is something bigger than you going on, yeah, and don't forget that because it also helps not it helps keep the self-hatred away because it's easy for me to go, this is bigger than just me. Yeah, it is bigger than bad decisions.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:52

It is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:53

This is yeah, there's more to it, and that does help. Yeah, it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:59

It's exhausting, I'll tell you that. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the point that I got to where I was just like, I'm fucking tired of feeling like this. I can't keep doing this. I gotta do something. That's in a hopefully a positive way.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:11

Not to quote the proud boys, but like uh you you gotta let your- Now it's taking the William turn. You gotta lay your five bricks. I don't know. You wanna build a house, you gotta let your five just do five bricks a day. Just you got to. Like it's there's literally no other way to do this. You got to put the work in and you start as small as you have to.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:30

I I I don't agree with the white supremacy aspect of it somehow that I don't understand is associated with it. Yeah, no, we don't have to get into that today. But yes, you do just yeah, you do a little bit, and it can end up taking you and and changing you in ways you don't actively believe that. Change it.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:48

And and you you you sniff it out right away, but like change is tricky for me. Change is it's a hard concept. Watching this show and discussing determinism is a hard concept. We always make the joke of whether or not I'm religious, and I I said it last time, I was like, I I feel like I shouldn't be, because if I was, I'm forever at odds and at rage with you. Meant this was destined. It's the same reason why I hate astrology. It's like I hate the idea that the place I was born and the time I was born led me to this much suffering. Yeah, yeah. I hate I'm I'm so comfortable in the concept that this is all chaos, and that's why I'm a part of suffering because like things are just bouncing all over the place, and I didn't pick all the things that happened to me, and I didn't, these weren't decisions that were made where it it had to be me. Yeah, it's chaos and it's no one's true fault. And then you come to this idea of determinism. Yeah, I'm fascinated by him using determinism to say my soul won't be judged for a wrong choice or a wrong call or a wrong action because it was predestined through cause and effect from a billion years ago. That's such a fascinating way to deal with grief. And that's what he is. He's struggling with grief. And he's damning himself. That's what he literally says. If it if it fails, then I'm damned. Exactly. Just like Jesus Christ. You you you put your soul on the scale and you're you you also have your fucking thumb on it and you're holding it down saying, I deserve to be punished.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:37

I'm gonna invent a different world, I'm gonna believe in a different worldview and put all my money and resources into proving the laws of nature that say it's not my fault, this was bound to happen regardless. Yep. Is uh is a fascinating way to take a selfish action. It's a fascinating way to discuss science fiction and the point and purpose of life, that it it always this is what good writing is, is it comes back to a human emotion.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:13

We're talking weird science fiction shit. Not not just that like we're you you made me watch Joan of Arc Burn in black and white bubble sand, like all because of him not processing grief. Yep. And honestly, like not wanting to.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:32

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:33

He'd rather say uh the rules and the laws of the world say it's it I don't have to. I'm okay. Yep. I killed like five people, and it's fine. It was fated to happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:45

Yeah, that was the only way.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:47

I didn't choose any of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:49

That's so fascinating to me. Yeah, I don't uh yeah, I'm so again, I'm so curious to see how this how this ends, because I remember, but I don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:59

As of right now, I remember two scenes, three scenes, and none of it explains what the hell the ending of the show is. Yeah, so I'm still way out on like I have no idea what this is. I don't know what his goal is.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:13

Yeah, and that's the thing, and then and he Forrest explains it to her. He's like, Do you think that that's possible? What do we think what's fucking possible? Are we gonna get that answer?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:21

Yeah, but this this is uh one of my favorite episodes we've done so far because it put a lot of perspective into the quantum physics of it, the determinism, the the many worlds, and seeing his daughter, seeing what happened, and that line of him talking about uh damning himself and all of that. I was like, Okay, here we are. This is these are the revelations I'm here for. We also got to see Kenton just beat the shit out of Jamie.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:53

Him fucking leaving the flowers of get well soon. He's such a fucking prick. I think, yeah, and I love yeah, for the revealing that he's in the CIA and the Chinese century and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, he's he's great. I'm so just laughing that Josh just.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:09

I was gonna say, I'm surprised Josh didn't want to uh be on for this episode. Yeah, yeah. This feels like a good Josh episode. Yeah, us getting into the determinism and Kenton because also Kenton has the uh I'm not going to jail. Sorry, guys. Yeah. Read that in your saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:27

And Katie's like, and you are? Yeah. Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:32

And I love uh one of my favorite lines in this episode was when they tell him, like, you can't do that. He goes, Have you met me? He's like, You don't think I can kill a little girl? Yeah. And she's like, That's not what I mean. Didn't say you aren't capable of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:50

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:50

But for him to just so matter of, have you met me? Yeah. Fucking yeah, hell yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:58

All right. Any random stuff we didn't hit upon?

SPEAKER_00 1:46:00

All I had was no man steps in the same river twice. Which we already got to. And it's great. Beautiful. Her dancing like a pretty cool dude. Yeah, playing go with him. Yeah. Which I tried to play once and I didn't get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:13

Me neither. I like, yeah, we talked about most of it. I like that Katie smiles at the end when she sees that Jamie breaks Lily out.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:21

Yeah. Her what because that's the the the motif of the episode is everything we're watching. She's essentially watching this through the the the technology of the devs program. So yeah, she watches Jamie take her out and then it cuts to her and she's smiling, which I guess is the is set in motion. Exactly. We're we're coming to what I know we need to come to.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:44

Yeah, and for the first time we see NHD in this new version of the program Lily's crawling on the floor and or a wall of the structure. Of this dev structure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Where it was previously just grainy. So it's like, yeah, shit's coming to a head. But yeah, I I'm gonna read more about this. Yeah. Because I'm dumb.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:08

Me too, man. This is weird. And that's that's the other thing. The villain knowing the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:16

Is such a cool premise of her smiling, going according to plan. We're right on time. Exactly. That's really fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:25

And how much has she watched? Does she know exactly how to watch? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's and that's uh if if I think back to writing mechanics and plot, that's really fun. That's cool, yeah. For her to to know very neat, be happy. Yeah, everything. Even when it looks like a plan's being foiled, she goes, It's all according to plan. We need this to happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:46

Is that Joker line? I didn't mean to quote the Joker.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:50

You always quote the Joker.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:52

Why are you so serious? Yeah, we'll be back next week. It's just gonna be us again, episode six. Yeah, cool, cool shit's happening on the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:00

I love it. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:02

I love you. I love you.