SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to season 10 of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer director Alex Garland. I'm William, the one who loves Alex Garland. And I'm Nick who also loves Alex Garland. And today we have our other great friend, Josh Jenkins, here to discuss episode three of Devs. How are you guys?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Good. Good. Good guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

It's been a while since uh I feel like I've seen you.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

How's life? Uh yeah, every month or so. I just I want to say that uh Dave gave me a little like called me out. He's coming for me. Oh, in terms of episode count. I could not be more excited about that. I love it when he comes on here. And if it takes a competitive edge for him to come on more often, I'm stoked for it. Yeah, absolutely. His analysis is always awesome. We we hung out last weekend, which we don't do not do enough.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Yeah, shout out John Morgan for putting that together.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I'm just not used to the people around me questioning me as much on that front and really like challenging my uh assumptions on things, and it forces me to have to be like, oh yeah, let me let me like go back with it. Normally I just ramble about pop culture stuff, and everyone just goes, Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, that's your genius, like kind of thing. But but not only not only did Dave uh kind of rock my shit on Lost, but then I think Mike Sanchez, might maybe Mike Sanchez came in.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

He gave me some shit, and then uh he tagged out, and then Dave came around the corner and was like, and another thing. That's great. I was like, Jesus Christ, okay, fine. All right. I guess you guys do really like Lost.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Yeah. Which you didn't think was possible, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I really like Lost.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

No, I just I just don't understand why people are so down with the the ending. Yes. Like we're so into it. Yeah, I thought we were it was all universally like hated. No, no, yeah. It was not.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Me and Mike really love it. Yeah, yeah. That's the last time. Well, no, I I I cried a lot during the whale, actually, you know, seeing myself in that film.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

But uh the fat guy movies where he jerks off to gay porn.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

Yeah, exactly. Okay, but the time before that that I like really sobbed was after finishing Lost because I binged it. We talked kind of talked. I I started in that conversation and then wandered off into Mikey's library uh on Sunday. Uh but like yeah, it had to have been, I mean, 10 years ago now, at least 10 years ago, that I binged Lost over, you know, I mean, there's so many fucking episodes. It was had to be over, you know, six months at least. But yeah, I watched the finale, like Hiro went to work or something, and I or she went to dance or something, and I was just sobbing because it was so emotionally impactful to me. I don't remember all the logistics, obviously, my famous memory, but I just remembering it it feeling cathartic, which is what's important to me. I don't give a shit about the answers and all that kind of stuff. It's about following the character's journeys.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

But maybe one day we'll watch Lost on the show.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

I was gonna say there is a pattern for anyone paying attention that uh apparently Steven Universe changed Nick's life, Neon Genesis changed your life, and you just said lost made you cry a whole bunch. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, the these are seen any of those series. That's what I'm saying is, yeah, and these are emotionally important uh series to you. I don't know. I mean it's and we've covered all of them except Lost.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Lost is the only or you guys doing Lost would be the only reason I would revisit Lost. Yeah. Um especially with those fucking long we uh for my birthday long seasons. We yeah, yeah, yeah. We uh I showed my birthday.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yes, happy belated birthday last week. Thanks, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Every um my birthday now is a tradition. I will hand select a bunch of random things that I really, really liked that like cooked me as a person, and then we will just watch them all day, and Marta will just commentate on them for better or worse.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Like, oh that this makes sense, yeah. Yeah, see pop culture form.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

It's such an interesting thing, and it's like I couldn't get her to watch a random episode of X-Files at any other point, so this is just a way to like lock that down. The curated list, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, I just going through all those episodes, I'm like, holy shit, there's like 3,000 episodes of X-Files, like god damn, I forgot. And I remember when when the cutoff, when it went from 24 down because the writer's strike, they started chopping them up at that time. The British shows were always like six Ada episodes, yeah, which I was just starting to get access to over the last couple of years of that. I was like, no, and now I'm like, oh thank god.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Yeah, and for I mean, I think most of our listeners know, but for the few that don't, broadcast television was funded by ads, so the more episodes you made, the more money you made.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

And when it came to to the British model, most of those are publicly funded through like the BBC, and they commission an entire series, which has a smaller budget, and that's usually only like 10 episodes. And what they mean by series is a season. So they don't have the money to spend to make 24 episodes necessarily, you know. And then once strip uh switched over to streaming, there were no advertisers, so they could choose how much length they wanted to do, and they were like, I don't want to they don't want to spend that much money for 24 fucking episodes, and most of the time they would commission an entire season, and television would be traditionally written just as you go piecemeal, do that advertising model. But with the streaming, they'd be like, Okay, here let's just do 12 issues with this or sorry, 12 issues. Yeah, exactly. So it's just uh times were different back then, and yeah, with Lost, we've talked about it a bunch. Uh, we do want to do it, but it would it would literally almost be a year of the podcast. That's really long, and that's with like two episodes per podcast. It's so fucking much. Yeah, um, and it's like, how much do we want our already small listenership to fucking drop off? I know we'll have Mike Sanchez listen to every episode and be on every other episode, but still, yeah, it's like deeply, deeply excited to have Sanchez on this show.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah, especially since and he's gonna hear this, and I don't think he'd balk against it, but every time I have seen Mike Sanchez walk into a room, he is automatically looking for the exit of said room. It is in the same yeah, like that you know, he's just like, How long do I have to be here? I enjoy you guys okay. He has Nick's friends when the fuck can I do it? This is a Nick trait, too. Exactly. He's always looking for an exit when he comes in.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

He's a cat, he doesn't like to be cornered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he always that's not a dig. I think that is it. Do we have to record his episode outside? I know, yeah, that's that's true. I mean, but I think rap, the subject matter, yeah, when we have him on later this year, that'll as long as it pulls him in. I'm just excited for him to yell. That's all I because you know you think that I fucking yell a lot, but yeah, when Mike has an opinion, I mean, goddamn. Shit changes though when you got a microphone in front of you. No, for sure. Yeah, that's but I I just want to be entertained, and I think I think I will be.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

But yeah, Nick just wants someone to yell at me.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

That's all I'm saying. Uh but yes, he is he is like that. I relate to that um because he's even more so than than I am. Yeah, it's it's great. So yeah, we'll be holding him hostage, but hopefully it'll be a subject that he loves. So hopefully that'll help. And same with Lost, if once we uh do get around to that and maybe a few seasons. I don't know. Yeah, we gotta figure out that model. Yeah, yeah, because it's tough. It's a long one, it's a long one. But yeah, Josh, how are you otherwise? How what projects are you working on? How's work? Are you working on any cool video games you can't really talk about?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, always how's the new Mass Effect coming?

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Shh, if if there was only any progress on that. Um, how's Bloodborne 2?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

God, uh now you're making me feel bad. Um no, um working on Nirvana Noir consistently, which is really, really awesome. Right now, I also have a pitch deck. Uh I've been working on a pilot script with this producer from Dark Winds. Oh, yeah, who I really like. He's it's one of the best collaborations I think I've ever had.

SPEAKER_04 8:25

Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Which is a long which is why I'm willing to work for at least eight months now on developing the show and putting together a pitch deck all for free. And it's like a lot of work. Yeah. And I'm in the home stretch because he's back in town. He lives in California, but he's here um with people that we are gonna try to pitch and get to be EP for the show. So I am like hustling to finish this pitch deck, at least like the first draft. Oh yeah. And he has no time, so it's like in flights back home. He basically is just like doing all the stuff like that. So I am busting ass on the just like days and days of just like when is this gonna end? Like I keep thinking that I'm at the last like slide in the pitch deck, and it's just like, oh shit, I need another one and another one, another one. Um, it's that. Also, there's a narrative podcast, really, really great one. They just got funded, so he gave me a bunch of money to make a bunch of designs.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

Yes, yeah, yeah. I think I saw uh Dan post about that on Instagram a couple weeks ago. Derelict, and it's really good.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Uh Jack, the guy who writes and produces and me off? Nice, lovely. He's my friend. He's uh he's he's really talented. Oh, I apologize for that. Otherwise, I would not probably be putting time into that either. Yeah, but it's just a bunch of little things with virtually no money. Yeah. Like and con and then the majority of my J is just sending out applications for looking for full-time work of which there is none. Yeah. The game industry is unbelievably greatered. It's in a real bad spot right now. 44,000 layoffs in the past few years. Yeah, really bad. And the demand has not changed at all. Which is yeah, so fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

That's yeah, I was just about to say uh I was gonna say something stupid, and I'm trying to work it through in my head before I say the dumb thing of like, what happens? But I mean, the the more budgets go up, and the game sells the like it just it feels like somewhere something broke with that industry and they never fixed it, and everyone's idea to fix it was like live service, and that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Gang of it's like a I mean a perfect storm of so many things, and I'm not gonna take up too much time on this one, but like one of them is is that you had a during COVID, they just bloated the industry so much with so many people, and you had a bunch of small studios that were picked up by bigger like entities that just don't give a fuck. Yeah, and so everything started going more towards like addictive properties, but you reach a certain point where you're like fighting for dopamine and they have legalized gambling on prediction markets and and OnlyFans, so it's like you're not gonna compete against that. Yeah, yeah. So the market share is then going elsewhere, like as a result. It's a bunch of things. AI obviously is a big one, but yeah, for development, yeah, pre-production, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's pretty fucking rough. But yeah, I mean it's still the the I mean as the sales, I don't think have gone down. I mean, games still make more money than movies every year, but yeah, hand over fist.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Yeah, movie budget.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Movies are every year it makes less and less. Yeah. That industry's dying in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, but big budget games have really died off. If you look at like the best like games that have come out, it's kind of double A Bellatro, Bellatro, and Hades 2 development costs have fucking ballooned, and it takes an entire generation for a triple A studio to make a fucking game.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

And they and there's studios that miss entire generations. Yeah, so at least that's going to be what's happening, which actually may not happen now that RAM prices are so fucking high and it's gonna delay all these next next next gen consoles, which we don't even fucking need anyway.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

I also think culturally the consumers, so the quote unquote gamer, like the gamer nerds always like a little, they seem to like something a little different. So once the graphics got awesome, you get your what's it, Horizon, Last of Us, Red Dead, like once graphics hit that level, all those indie games that it's like, well, can you give me creative gameplay? Can you give me something I want it to look different? I want and just art design it to be. I want journey, I want no action. Like they started going there, and I think there is a certain part of the gaming culture that's like, okay, okay, I uh we went far enough here. Uh what's on the other side? And it always moves, it feels like.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, I have this um this constant ongoing battle in my head about fidelity and like just how important it actually is. And more times than not, like it just isn't that important. No, China is killing it too. They're another component in this, and they're releasing just the most beautiful shit because they can put their entire, I don't know, GDP up. Yeah, they're trying to win a culture war right now, and which I think is brilliant to me on like a whole other level. Like their anime and their video games are coming out, and it's just like try explaining to some Gen Z kid that like this is an evil empire when they've been watching all of the time. It's brilliant, it's something America did for the longest time. That was our best soft power, it's the best thing we ever scored off.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Best propaganda we ever made.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, David Hasselhoff played that the the wall. Yes, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So yeah, anyway, that's that's what's gonna Now I get it. What's with you, Will? I know Nick, how are you? Yeah, William's in a bad spot today. Yeah, Jesus Christ. He's not having a good time. I gotta admit, like last week you guys were trying to fucking verbally kill each other. I know. And I it was so funny.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

It's gonna have to keep it up. It's gonna have to fucking wait. Because yeah, I'm gonna go back to the floor. It was a very funny episode, I think.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Oh, it was so funny. Okay, good. I yeah, I was just like, I I couldn't even stop to be like, are they okay? I'm like, I don't care, I'm too entertained to uh to worry about their well-being.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

I know what a lot was going on with me, uh, which I'll I'll I'll try and speak to as much as you guys actually want to speak to, but there was this runoff.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Self-deprecation never stops.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

There was this there was this runoff of the episode with Dave, where I was like, sometimes Nick suns me a little too much. Like you come in condescending and patronizing where you go, just listen to me, stop thinking, don't use your brain, just what I said goes. I was like, I don't know, I don't like that. And I was in a salty mood, so like a few of our arguments last episode, I was like, I think I got your ass. I think I fucking got your ass. You don't remember this. Is my thing about this? I don't fucking care. And that's the thing is I was about to say, you don't remember anything that was said, but just the fact that I said I got your ass, you want to say I don't think so, with no context of what we talked about. It's just the urge of you to go, I think that's impossible.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Well, that's the thing. You know, we've been friends for long enough where, especially at this point, I know when you're lashing out at me, which yeah, I'm not some kind of fucking saint, obviously, but uh I'm I'm I have no qualms in admitting that that I'm not enough fucking asshole. But usually when you're coming after me, you're it's it's you're you're going after yourself, you're in a bad uh you're in a bad mood or something like that, and really you're taking your safe self-hatred out on me. Uh, which hey, you can hate me, that's all you know, whatever. I love you, Nick. I don't hate you. But yeah, so it's whatever, it's I I don't really care. But I was getting a little defensive uh the other day. I was like, man, fucking Williams getting all pissy about my music taste. Just leave me alone, let me listen to the fucking music I want to listen to. No one gives a shit. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't I because that's the whole every once in a while there's a calculus in Williams' brain where he has to make sense of something and he's trying to comprehend something that he doesn't, like my music taste or something, yeah, and so he gets mad at me about it. And I'm like, what do you what do you want me to do about it?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

I get it, and I try I try to quantify everything and pull back sometimes. I get it. Specifically our friend group, I think we all have that. I think I don't get mad at you though. The thing I well, you get shitty about it. There you give me an attitude about it. I guess the the word I was gonna use is I get frustrated. You're always blown away, and yeah, you're you're frustrated, but with that frustration because the math doesn't math to me, but this is what I said last episode. I take it as disrespect. You take everything as disrespect if you don't just come across blatantly, factually on top. It's disrespect if it's not that. But like we even talked about it last episode where I was like, talking this out helps me. I understand there's no one in my life that likes doing this, and it's always a struggle. Self-hatred, it's also a fact because you just said you take it as disrespect. So I'll about speaking truth.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

I'm a very defensive person.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Walk over the the William said something self-deprecating, because it's true in this moment, but like while talking it out, I was like, I forget you're not that, you're a riff guy, you're not the lyric guy. I forget, even in your scripts, you're not a clever wordplay guy. You're an empathy machine guy. And I mean this as a as a positive. We talk about this all the time. That's one of the reasons why you go, I don't know, the Cone Brothers aren't my bag. Tarantino's not your thing. Like, you're never the closest I would say is Wes Anderson, but he gets a pass because he's a genius. But like some of your favorite writers, they're not clever, cutesy wordplay script guys. And that's what I said is like, I do forget that. And I'm like, wait, why don't you're because I can do the math of you're a writer. And I'm like, that doesn't mean you like playing with words, you're a writer, you like building a world, putting someone in it, emotional resident. Like, there's so many things that you go, this is what I do with writing. I can forget that. And then once I remember, I'm like, no, we're fine. I just forget, and I need to walk it out.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Yeah, especially with music. I never I I mean, I wrote lyrics because I had to, and that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

It's like, yeah, I I I forget those things sometimes. Like, yeah, that's it's not crazy. None of your taste is crazy because it's also not that different from me. Sure. Like, we're both the guys that'll sit here and go, uh I regret to inform you. I'm a large and at a time a very big red hot chili peppers fan. And I will say, yes, I understand the Anthony Keatus problem. Yeah, I fully understand. And I hate funk. Yes. Like, I I don't like slap bass and like that stuff, but then we get to certain songs of theirs, like wet sand or hey, yeah, John Frashante, he is such a you can't he he overpowers everybody, and that's where I'm like, I'm not I'm not different in that way with you, where I'm like, I don't like metal music, I like three metal bands, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Yeah, yeah. As somebody who watches your listen to your show regularly, the variance between your tastes feels very minute. Very yeah, I think people offered it. Obviously, in like genre and stuff like that, but you will listen to an entire chance to rap. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like a chance album or I forget what you were listening to.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

You listened to Earl's sweatshirts live love lag without your prompting it.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yeah, and I'm half I'm halfway through Blonde, like I told you the other day. Yeah, I'll listen to the rest of it tomorrow. Probably the new metric album comes out tomorrow, actually. So you're gonna be busy. Yeah, so I'm gonna be run into that. But um I do think last episode was funny.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Okay, I do think genuinely really funny. Some of the some of the back and forth. It's that thing of like, I think I got you on a few points, and then you literally will go out of your way to go, William, I'm just calling you stupid right now. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. But we gotta hit this. Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Well, you well, here's the thing, you guys are not gonna do that around John Morgan. No. And no. Dave is light enough, but he'll mom you. Dave is like moderating. Okay, I think I got this. Yeah, he can break it up. So I think he's just building up. Yeah. And then you guys got like a like an episode apart, and you're like, and another thing. Oh, yeah. Still holding the momentum of whatever you were pissed off about from two episodes before. Yeah, I'm still pissed.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

I told him I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna defend myself, but Josh is on the next episode, so I'll save him for next week. But it does no, but but it's it's kind of interesting. Hanging out on Sunday with the talk with the comic shout-in group, I was just kind of looking around at books and all this stuff, and I was just like, I just want to hear my friends' opinions on the stuff. Because I didn't really engage that much. I was just like, I just want to look at some stuff I want to wander around and I want to hear people's opinions.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

But I have a but I have a question about funny because it it really stuck with me because I remember you talking about you're like, I'm really good at being an asshole, and I I pop off on people and I don't mean to, and I'm driving home, and I'm like, what the fuck? We were having a conversation, and you brought up something about like race. References and comics, something to that effect. Yes. And I misunderstood you. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I made a comment about your comic, and it elicited a response from our friends is that like, oh, like kind of which it did not mean it to me. Yeah, it was just a misunderstanding. Shot fired kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And you looked at me and you did something with a mannerism that I hadn't seen before, which is where you stuck your tongue out and you stared at me, like you're doing right now. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, is he about to tear into me? Or, you know, I'm just like, all right. But then it processed my mind. Like, oh no, he does, yeah, exactly. And then instead of getting defensive, you went another direction and you accurately perfectly described what you actually meant. I understood you. And then I was like, oh, okay, I that's not what I got out of it. Yeah, yeah. And then we moved on from it. But I was like, was that one of those moments where you were about ready to like pop off?

SPEAKER_03 22:52

It it was, but it was a moment of growth for me. And that's one of the nicest things anyone's ever said in terms of like me being able to shift and articulate into it. I'm glad you picked up on that because yeah, immediately my defensive brain is just like, what the fuck? Even though even though it was complete misunderstanding. Yeah, exactly. Complete misunderstanding. So I was I was legitimately proud of myself. Like, good for you, Nick. You actually like pivoted. He had to drive home being like, why do I like this? I know. But it was a legitimate just misunderstanding of of the terms we were using or whatever. Totally. And then we're just figured it out. And then, yeah, because usually I would be like, What the you know, I'd misinterpret it or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Especially when three of our friends across like, oh, it threw me off too.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

I was like, wait, I don't it was not a dig.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Exactly. And it's a thing you made, so it's super personal on that level.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

But no, we it it yeah, but that's funny. Because I yeah, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. I'm gonna, you know what I mean? And I'm gonna saw it.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

That's funny. But you didn't do the dagger, it wasn't like I was just like, I really don't know where this is gonna go. Because he was processing four things at once. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

He was processing my feelings are hurt, so I need to rip your fucking head off. It was like the beach ball, the interesting guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

It was blue screen of death in my brain. I'm just like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

No, and it was like, all right, yeah, but we figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

But I but yeah, I was completely wrong. I no, we wrong at the end. It was no what I thought you meant. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

Yeah, but wandering around just listening to you guys talk about you know what you think about this, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm trying to pick up recommendations because you know, I don't read as much as I used to these days, so I don't have as much time, but inevitably, you know, it doesn't devolve, but it becomes the shouting and the comic shouting where Mikey's literally fucking yelling at Dave about something, and then John Morgan's trying to talk to me about European comics really loudly or something like that. And as they were talking about things, you know, talking about Absolute Batman, talking about the Power Fantasy two books that I I like. I I love Absolute Batman, and I think Power Fantasy is cool, and I'm interested to see where he goes. But like I heard a couple things that I didn't agree with, but I was just like, uh, I don't care. Yeah, because it doesn't change my experience of it. Like, I'm interested in what my friends have to say, and if we're analyzing the craft of it and everyone's different opinions and different, you know, backgrounds and different life happenstances, choices, all this kind of stuff, life experience shapes your guys' opinions, and I love hearing that, and that's what's one of the cool things that we do. But whereas 15 years ago, when we were doing it, Kyle said something that pissed me off. I'd be like, Oh, you fucking more, you know, and I just go running from from the other room.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

You know, it would have been like it would have been like that. But now, not that I'm any wiser, but I'm definitely older and more tired, and I'm just like, yeah, it's okay. I I'm I'm enjoying it. And it's fun to hear my friends talk about it. But it's also probably a defense mechanism of I don't want to click into what my usual thing is, to where I take something personally and then you know insult somebody and then I'm banging my head against the steering wheel the way over.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Don't be self-deprecating, Nicholas.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

No, I I do it all the time. You're in.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, and and also you you're definitely in like the most like puffiest room you could possibly be in. You could be yelling at everybody and everyone's just like, hmm. Yeah, exactly. Okay, well, anyway, like absolutely no one will be upset that you're upset. Exactly. Even a little bit, it's crazy. It's it's it's uh we're all just expect to yell at each other. It it it's that's funny. It's good.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

It's a s it's a safe space, you know. I know that that's an overused term, but but for uh really is you know, with the average age being about 46 or something, probably. Yeah, you're the young boy. I'm the youngest, yeah. And yeah, it's about the safest space that male nerds in the 40s could uh could could be.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

They don't have any interest in like sports ball or any like none of that stuff, like exactly no UXC conversation. There's pro wrestling as a whole, that's a narrative thing way that it is like a physicality thing, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Yeah, it's a it's a great time. Yeah, it that kind of calmed me down a little bit in terms of me thinking about getting revenge on William this week. Where I was like, yeah, it's okay, just let him have his little perceived victories, which twist the knife a little bit with that word choice. Uh but yes, William, how are you? I'm sorry, you seem bumped out. Work really busy. I like your pants. Yeah. Though I don't like the brown with the gray. I don't know, choose.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

You like brown and gray? No. What's the belt? What's going on with the belt? It's light brown. Oh, okay. That puts it together. It matches the shoes.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Black. Yeah, okay. That's okay. Um, I take it back. I wasn't so it's complicated. I wasn't in a shitty mood. And I wasn't mad at you Tuesday. We recorded Tuesday. Uh but I can't be like, no, that's fine, I was in a great mood. Thursday was It was probably the uh it was probably the worst day I've had since uh what made me s call and start therapy.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Um I'm here. I made it, almost didn't, I guess. Um that's hard. That's tough. So it is funny to like, oh, but when was in a shit mood? I was like, I didn't I don't know if I was in a shit mood. And then Thursday comes, I was like, clearly, I was in a shit mood. You know, or it's the like Do you feel that when you when you listen to the episode again, you're like, oh no, I've what I feel when I listen to the episode is uh I'm heightened, I'm more like it's funnier quicker. We got to the throw my dick out the window thing. That's typically something that would take me like an hour and a half to get to. And that like we're opening being silly, but when it started coming to debates or like arguments, I was feeling I was like, well, you're standing up for yourself a little more, or you're not letting a point just walk away because it's just me and you. But I didn't I didn't hear the anger, I didn't hear the stress, and I didn't hear any of the other stuff, but clearly it's all there because you know, two days later I uh I struggle as much as I did. And um I'm okay, I guess, today. Um again, it's it's you know, I'm here. I will be, don't have to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Work really strike strike uh culminating into a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

That's the problem, is I want to say no, but like it can't just be coincidence. So obviously, yeah, work was stressful. Wednesday was my uh big meeting I had. It's like 30 people in the room, my CEO, my manager, and I'm running the room. I'm the only one speaking. I'm I'm leading an advisory committee uh meeting and presentation with like brokers and heads of industry in this thing. So, you know, I put a suit on, I did my whole thing, did my song and dance, I did great. Of course I did. That's what I'm good at. So I did it well.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Are you entertaining too? I mean, are you kind of thrown in zero?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

It's funny, it's entertaining, it's sincere, it's it's everything I do, it's not boring, I make it relatable. I mean, I it you know, this isn't something that I write down, but I'm naturally able to do callbacks of I set this up at the beginning and I'm nailing it at the end, and I know what questions you're gonna ask, and I'm prepped for it. I can walk you to where I need you to be. So, like I did well and I got compliments and it went well, but um it's easy to say the the buildup of the stress of it and then the come down after. It could be all those things. The thing that I keep um coming back to is when I hit certain emotional issues, the the mindfulness practice of what do you what do you need right now? What do you want? If there was someone in front of you and you could ask them for something, what would you ask them for? And sometimes it gets as simple as I just need a hug and I want to feel connected with somebody. And I don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Did you ever watch the Conan O'Brien like documentary?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Not the never stops where he got uh where he got fired and he had to do because he couldn't do late night, so he did the tour.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I think so, yeah. I think that was the one I did. He talks about like the kind of like post-euphoria that comes from and he's he's like it's a really good documentary because he's not really afraid to not come across like an asshole or anything like that. But he's like, I can't just go out and perform in front of a bunch of people and then take a nap, and then I'm like, ooh, I'm good. I mean, there's like so much like pump that comes from that. And there's a like there's a dump there's a lot of neurological dump that comes on after that. And I don't know if that was a part of it, but I feel like if I was in presentation mode in front of 30 people and I'm the only one running it, I'm doing stuff like that, and I'm I'm doing zingers and I'm pulling people, you don't know if it's gonna work out, it works out perfectly the way you want to. Yeah, it's probably a massive drain. It's a big part neurologically. And then you get home and and then yeah, and you're just like now there's no people there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so it's like, and you're not like a club type, you're not gonna be like, all right, now let's go out and celebrate at a bar or something. Yeah. So you you don't have that like um you don't have to and the ability to like dock, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Exactly. And I think that's that's where a lot of that struggle comes from, is like I don't have those connections with people. I don't have those outlets. So if I hit a moment where it's like, fuck, I just I I need a hug or I need to feel connected, I hit that, I'm just telling myself every sad story because every positive, I'm not I'm not gonna think about that. I'm putting going, yeah, but that doesn't count right now. Like I am hurting myself emotionally. I'm purposely lying and only thinking of worst-case scenario, like, well, no one this or no one that or blah blah blah, or so and so. So it's like I I know a lot of it's um I mean all of it, not all of it, a lot of it's self-inflicted, and I get that, but it just it hits that thing of like it is what it is. In the moment it's real, in the moment that is where I'm at, and so that's where uh yeah, Thursday was hard. I stayed at work and I couldn't I didn't get anything done, you know, because I was like, well, I can't go home, shouldn't be alone right now. That's not the best option. So yeah, the work was really hard, and then I think the only way I got out of it is the understanding and it's by myself, so I I'm sure there's better ways to get out of it, but I was like, everyone in my life is happy with the amount of me in their life, like this is good. Like friends think of me and go, yeah, I'm his friend, I like him, I enjoy what fill in the boy, whatever it is they enjoy about me. My co-workers, if they think they go, yeah, no, William, this that's what he is. Everyone's okay. I need to accept that there's not a missing piece there, and I need to accept of like the reality is what it is. The it the honest acceptance is that just because I need something doesn't mean there's something missing, it's more complicated than that, and so I can't um I can't I can't dwell on those things. It's the whole parents thing, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's like okay, well, does my mom actually hate me? Probably not. I'm sure she loves me in whatever way to whatever capacity she does. Is it the way I need it?

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Not at all, and what you needed when you were a kid, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah, so like it's it's not what I need, but it's what she can do to the level she can do it. At a certain point, you have to accept that from that person, you know what I mean? So like that the I have to I have to just go there and be like, no, everything is where it is for right now, and just it's it's it's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Um I'm gonna give you some actionable advice, and it's gonna sound silly, but I'm 100% serious. Have you considered knockouts?

SPEAKER_00 35:30

No, yes and no. I think when it comes to things like that, that might be uh worse in a way. I don't think certain vices work for me in a positive. They might, I might overthink them and it might lead more further down. Because when I mean connection, I don't need on that level. Like I need an actual connection type of thing, and that's what because like it it's it's not hard if I needed to just hook up with somebody. I'm not saying to hook up, but it I yeah, I guess that's where my brain goes with stuff like that. It's like I don't know if I need that type of stimulus.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

I'm not saying a prostitute, yeah. I'm saying going to a strip club and with 21s in your pocket, yeah, and another 80 bucks in 20s and going in there and interacting with a very attractive woman across from you and just shooting the shit and then getting a lap dance, and you get a big hug out of it. It's the best hug you'll ever have. I preferred all my interactions in strip clubs more than I did bars. Just because I could just bullshit with the most interesting person that just had the most interesting thing happen to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Yeah, um I've I've been to like four bars and they're almost always for shows or I was you know asked to go for something. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not a yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

That's come down from that thing and just you know, again, you you can't am I gonna get laid? Am I gonna do the phone number? You know, don't get drunk. You know, like all I don't think you have any of those problems whatsoever. Am I gonna feel like a loser sitting here by myself at a strip club?

SPEAKER_02 37:07

No, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

It's their job to make you not feel like a fucking loser.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yeah, so yeah, weird advice, but no, it it's I mean, it you know, you you do the any port in the storm of any advice because you know, I I only talk to a therapist an hour a week. So it's it's a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's you know, and that is part of I think everybody's uh advice was something at a certain level. Once it gets as serious as it got, no one's gonna tell me that of like, do you try to hug yourself? No one's gonna say that when I'm at that level. But if I was at a more stable and I'm like, I don't know, I'm just kind of lonely down the dumps. Someone would for sure go, Did you try hugging yourself? And I'm like, Do you try fucking yourself out of my face? Like, I get it. The self-love and the self-soothing, and the you gotta take care of yourself. I get all of that is real. Yeah, there's just there's something else in that that next other is uh that's that's been the struggle, and that is something that me and you talked about on that episode. Of um, I don't think I'm crazy to say where I'm at is not who maybe I should be in terms of I I need connection or I want it, but I'm not built for it, maybe, or things like that. Like I don't see a lot of that as crazy. Nick did a really good job to remind me of like even if it should just be point in time, which I think everybody's had that of you know, point in time is a different thing given circumstance. So I'm I'm very well aware, and I did want to say this is um is why I didn't call anybody, this why I didn't text anybody. Because when you get you should though, and you always can just put it out there, it's putting it. I always can. And this is what I this is what I went through in my head is well who? And I was like, if I'm being honest, I could go into my office and literally any of them. The manager I never talked to that I hate. And if I told them, hey, this is where I'm at, they'd close the door, they'd give me two hours of their time, they would cancel like anybody I could have told the security guard at the front desk. Like, on a just a human level, I know I can go to just anybody. I know that, but then there's the on the higher level, I would say there's three people I could call or text in that moment. Nick, my therapist, and one other person. What would they be telling me? And all of the things that I feel they would be telling me, I was already kind of understanding of it. And that's where I was uh this is where I've come when I get to this point of it's never gonna happen because I'm not allowed, therefore it won't. And I think that's always there. There's the fear of I can't uh I'm not fully in control, and that's why I didn't go home and I didn't, I wasn't alone. But there is if I'm working this out in my brain, there's always that the the the break of it, the break pad of this is yeah, but you can't. You're you're you you're not allowed to do this because what it does at everybody else, and that's you can't do that. So that's where it's like, okay, well then what are we doing here? Like I'll talk it out, or I'm I'm um, I'm not in control of what I'm thinking, and I think that was my problem at the time, is I'm thinking things and I'm seeing things and visualizing all of that, where I'm like, I don't I don't like this, I'm not having fun looking at these things, and then the further it goes, I'm just like, yeah, but if if we're not do it or don't, I got shit to do in terms to quote the wire, and that's where I go, yeah, but so we're not. So I guess go back to work, I guess like talk to somebody, make a joke, like we're never we're never at that level because you feel like it's never on the table all the way as an action. So that's where that goes, and I think where therapy sits is it's not good enough if the only reason why I'm not doing things that we're talking about is because I go, well, it would it would hurt and fuck a lot of people up, and that's a rude thing to do. She's like, it would be it'd probably be a little cooler if the reason why you didn't is because you don't want to, because there's something else you want, and I'm like, yeah, well, maybe I don't know. Just that's you know, i there's there's gonna be moments, I think, still in my life for a while now where that's as far as I can go as like, yeah, you can't do certain things because of what it does to other people, and that's kind of it.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Well, if you are feeling really down the dumps, you should take my advice and just give that a whirl, especially if there's nothing else, you know what I mean? I should, I'm I'm watching what do you have to leave? What are you gonna yeah?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, like I'm rewatching Mad Men.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

I should just walk out of the office and go to knockouts in the middle of the day. Yeah, why not? Um, why not? I have I have one more story before we get into this if you guys don't mind. So this is a few weeks ago. I I actually haven't told this. Um, I was really mad at the time. So uh this is a couple weeks ago. I had this writing test that I needed to do for a studio. It was like a lot, and I was jumping into it before that. Uh Marta had me move a bunch of stuff out of our guest bed. So I moved a bunch of stuff over. I sat down in front of my computer and I started feeling like weird. I had just done my taxes the day before, and I was like, is this a panic attack? This is a panic attack, I don't have time for this shit. And so I'm just like, I'm like, I'm just gonna have to breathe my way through it. And at some point in time, I start feeling like really strange. And I look down at my Fitbit and I'm my heart rate is 150. Whoa! And I was like, okay, like I've never I'm yeah, yeah, yeah. I should probably put some pants on. So I so I I I kind of get dressed, I find my shoes, and then I lose my shoes, and I can't find my shoes. I'm wandering around my house freaking out. I'm like, I don't know what's happening with my brain right now. Yeah, I need to grab my shoes, I need to go to the neighbor just to observe me because I think I'm having a medical. So I I first I walk out without my shoes, and I'm like, where the fuck are my shoes? Go back in, put my shoes on, find them. Finally, neighbor's not there. I walk across the street to a neighbor I'd never talked to before. I go, hey man, I think I'm having a medical emergency. It's probably a panic attack, and you just sit and watch me for like a minute. He goes, All right, man. So I sit down in front of his house, cool ass neighbor, and I'm just sitting there. And everything, and he's trying to talk to me. And I am like, my brain is something horrific is happening that I feel could only be a stroke. And I'm just like, I'm like, uh, 10 minutes goes by. I'm like, hey man, can you give me some water? He's gone for like this an inordinate amount of time. I'm like, is he calling somebody? Like, what are we doing here? Comes out, gives me some water. I start drinking it. Lil Boys goes in. I go, I think you need to drive me to the hospital. This is like something, this is off. It's not going away. Okay. So I go to the hospital. He just sets me down in the waiting room. He's like, good. I'm like, no. And he's like, okay, bye. Good enough. It's just like, okay, number and phone. I can't look at my phone. Like I can't interface with anything. Yeah. Like everything is dizzy and I can't make sense of anything. I can't speak correctly. Literally walk up into the emergency room and I just toss my like ID and my card. Yeah. And she's like, why are you here? And I'm like, I don't uh like I can't speak unrelated function real quick.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah. Just so I unrelated, so we don't get demonetized. Do you take the do you get vaccinated? Do you get the jab?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

So uh so I go in there and I'm just I'm sitting there and time is dilating in this fucked up way, and I can't communicate like well. And I look over and I see these two women that are sitting like across from me, and I'm like, I'm not crazy. And they're like, okay. And I'm like, normal people never say that. One of them goes, goes, No man, I think you're the sanest person here. I'm like, don't talk down to me, but I'm not crazy though. And she's like, All right, cool. And they're trying not to make eye contact with me. And I'm I'm just sitting there and I'm like, and I go, I can't believe that I feel like I'm about to die, and all I can think about is how crazy you people think I am.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

The two girls from the shining. The lady's like, there's no one.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

I'm so concerned with how you people feel about me when I am in the midst of a fucking stroke. I'm like, why won't anyone help me? Yeah. My brain's not making the woman at the front could not give a fuck. She's just like, sit down. And I go, I'm about to pass out. She goes, Well, then you might want to sit down. And I was like, What the fuck is happening? I'm like freaking the fuck out. I'm able to text Dan. I'm like, Dan, please come to hospital and everything. And then he shows up like, thank God I have like an advocate for me. Because and I'm having these like deeply empathic moments where I'm like, holy shit, I I'm I'm I'm freaking the fuck out. I'm thinking about every interaction I've ever had with somebody that looked crazy, and I'm like, maybe they weren't on drugs, maybe they were just trying to convey to me that they were sane, like I'm doing right now. And I was just like, get the fuck away from me, fucking monster. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm really feeling like the empathy. So finally, like 30 minutes goes by. Doctor comes, he sees me, checks my eyes, checks everything, asks a bunch of questions. Thank God Dan is there to go, like, this is not normal. Yeah, he's a normal person, yeah, which is all I care about. He doesn't do drugs, he exercises every day. This is not normal, you know, and he's being very calm and cool with me the whole time we're there. Then we go to a second waiting room where there's tons of people, and I'm like, oh fuck me. We're never, I'm like, I'm over here and I'm trying to talk to him. I'm whispering because I'm afraid I'm yelling and acting crazy. And if I stop communicating long enough, I start hallucinating.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

What the?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I'm just sitting there and all of a sudden I'm like walking down a street somewhere, and then I like come out of it. I'm like, dude, I'm in dreamland right now. I'm on the fucking moon. Yeah, what the fuck is happening to me? He's looking at it. Somebody comes in, they're like, He have this history of bladder infections, and we think maybe that's what it is. And so now I'm sitting here going, Oh my god, this is my life now. And I'm thinking about my uncle who had a stroke, and how he was like, I could just you could see, you could look into his eyes, and you could see like this like campfire way off in the distance in his eyes somewhere, and you you could so you know there's something in there, and he's UTIs give you delirium, you know.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

And I'm I'm yeah, so I'm especially losing my fucking mind over this. Like, okay, hour and a half later, they get me into a bed, I get a CT, they put me in an IV, they take my blood, they give me a urine test. By the way, really hard to give a urine test in the state that I'm in. Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely like freaking the fuck out. So I had to hold it for you. God bless him. Yeah, thank God.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

So so I were But that's what he told you. He's like, dude, you can't do this, I gotta hold it for you.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

So I'm like the doctor told me, don't ask him though, because he'll deny it. All the tests come back. Doctor comes in and he goes, Okay. He goes, CT test is fine, blood test is fine, urine is fine. You did test positive for THC. I go, impossible. I go, fucking impossible. I go, I smoked weed one time like 20 years ago and I hated it. Did it feel like this? And I go, yes, yes, it did. So now I'm like, who the fuck drugged me?

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Because this is impossible.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

And I'm like, oh my God, Ruby, this girl stayed with us for like a month and a half. She might have been a stoner, I don't know. And I'm like, and she she wouldn't have done, she didn't dose me. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, what the fuck happened? So I'm trying to figure this out. I so the doctor's like, all right, I'm like, get me the fuck out of here. I'm just really high now. Who cares?

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Like now you're embarrassed.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yeah, now I'm embarrassed. Yeah, yeah. But no, no, it's just really high.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

I would not spend thousands of dollars to find out you were high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I'm supposed to watch the Kevin Smith movie and I'd be at the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah, yeah. So so Dan comes back, and while I'm sitting there, because time is so fucked up, like, and I'm again never smoke weed. So I don't if I if I felt this way and I started seeing these symptoms, I'd just be like, I don't know how, but I'm really high. Yeah. But time is like stretching in this weird way, and I can't remember what I did. And I start trying to like think back to when it was. While I was moving that mini fridge, Marta being European, she keeps a bunch of like water and snacks and stuff like that in there. I ate more than half a bar, a chocolate bar that was in there. Not even thinking it might be weed, never clocked it, never thought twice about it, and then came back in. And so when we got back to the house, I checked it. So it looks like I did about 60 milligrams.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Jeez.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

So yikes. And edibles hit different than smoking, right? If you don't know, like, because I looked it up. I think it's like five is normal, isn't it? Five is real normal. 30 is a heavy, heavy dose. Yeah. And I doubled it. I when I tell people from nothing to 60s.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah, not zero to sixty is the most important.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

The scariest and crazy part of this was not knowing what the fuck was happening to me. Oh, yeah. That's the part that is like the most. I'm like, I'm like this forever.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Like, so I ended up being-cause the most I'm really too high thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Everything, the empathy, the time dilation, like all of it made like perfect fucking sense. But I when I I I have a couple friends that are stoners, and I I told them it's 60 milligrams. I go, oh my fucking god.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Not for you, dude.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Five puts me on the fucking moon and I've been smoking my whole life. Man, like, whoa, how are you still alive? People are it was fucking brutal. So yeah, I just want to tell the story.

SPEAKER_03 51:34

Jesus Christ. And yeah, for people who don't know you personally, they don't understand how fucking funny it is. But you can Jesus Christ. There's like a person like you who doesn't do anything like that necessarily anymore.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I've been sober for like 10 years. Like I used to love booze, and I haven't this is the first time I've been intoxicated in like 11 years, and it was not fun. Exactly. Even a little bit. Nothing all over. Like, I didn't laugh once, I didn't feel good once. I didn't get hungry. Like how nothing.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

You take care of yourself really well in terms of like, yeah, you exercise every day, you eat well, you you do partake in sweets every once in a while. So I love the idea of you being I deserve a treat.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Exactly. I need a treat.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

I can eat this chocolate bar and then it fucks you up and puts you in the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

I love that. Yeah, the Vietnam flashback without the war just because you did a sweet treat.

SPEAKER_05 52:33

So good, man.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Yeah, that's fucking brutal. So dude, I just wanted to share that with you and your listeners. That's hilarious. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Nick, how's your brain, you fucking punk bitch?

SPEAKER_03 52:45

No, I mean, I haven't had anything particularly dramatic. Yeah, I was I was in a bad mood today for sure, you know. I don't know. Grumpy bad mood? Yeah, I no, I don't know. It's it's just those things of I have a lot to do and I'm it's a it's a come down thing. If there's a lot to do and try to figure out that's the refactory period. Uh but no, I mean it's nothing compared to suicidal ideation or dosing yourself and going to uh the hospital because you ate 16 fruits of THC. I love that so much. Williams, not so much. I don't like that one.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

But no, I'm yeah, yours sounds cooler than crying in uh the third floor bathroom stall while a guy's shitting his brains out after lunch.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Usually you're the guy shitting your brains out. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Yeah, we switched it up. I know. Wow. Yeah, yeah. He must have thought like mine was brutally bad. I'm like sobbing. Dude, you need some pepto bro.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

It's like I gotta get out of here. That guy's going through it. Yeah, exactly. Uh, but no, I'm in the context of those two stories, I am fine. Cool. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate asking. And yes, if either of you are in weird situations, I can help. This I know I have a child, I have work, I have these things. Yeah. But uh, you know, it's fine. I could bring the kid. So just don't if you need help, I'm here. Okay. Cool. Whether you've dosed yourself with drugs or you're in a very dark place.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah. Um, yeah, I offer my services of helping. Nick did air quotes when he said dark place around me for the people that aren't in the room.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

And I rolled my eyes. Yeah, he did roll his eyes. Uh, but you know, to to make a dark transition, if we're gonna stick with the dark theme, it's interesting about the episode that we're talking about, Lily going out on a ledge. Yeah, which I I'm curious to see why, because what other episode are you gonna come on? Because you chose seven episode three and seven. Yeah. So I'm curious to I I don't remember what happens at seven. We'll get there when we get there. Yeah, yeah. And Dave will be on eight. There's a very specific reason for seven.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Three, it's a little more amorphous. It could have been four, it could have been five, but I wanted to come in. Okay. Um, and this is definitely an episode I I wanted to just get on early on just to get your things.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

I was just about to make a joke about a spoiler because I don't know if it's that episode up, but we'll we'll hold it for seven. I might know why. There might be something that connects these two that's very funny to me.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

There's something that happens at episode seven, it's just one of my favorite like things in like literature or film or any kind of media, and it's very rarely done. And when it is, it's it's always like gets me sick. On screen conolingus.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Yes, always good.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Yeah, it's rare.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

You can show you violence and blue valentine. You can just Google it too.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

I mean, there's a lot of but why I chose this one, it features Kenton very heavily. Yes, and Kenton is my favorite character. Yeah, yeah. The these kind of people, uh, just because I've met them through my other job. Yes, the bomb job. Yeah. Uh well, you just you meet a lot of like private con people that are in private sector that were in military and like various things and stuff like that. And Kenton might be one of the best versions of this, I've most accurate. They come in different shapes and sizes for sure.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

But kind of like this episode shows with the Secret Service guy and Kenton.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Yeah, well, I definitely want to talk about that. That too, uh, just being as like an operator that that have that have gotten into the private sector. I think there's a lot going on there, but yeah, I just really, really like the way Kenton is portrayed. And not only that, the way that um I was noticing this when I rewatched Dread. He does this one shot where he shoots uh white phosphorus from his gun. Yeah. And it looks just like white phosphorus, which I have dealt with hundreds of times. And it's just such a specific thing, and it's not really used, and it just makes me wonder it's illegal, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

That's why they don't use it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Um that he's he's so fucking good with military and like he just seems like he really pays a lot of attention to it. And of course, later on we get to like literally the movie warfare. Yeah, but I feel like even at this point, he's kind of had a fascination with like really being earnest with about like military and like the details of that. It's so specific.

SPEAKER_03 57:21

Yeah, he still wants to respect it while yeah, he he he can criticize it, you know, like he does in 28 days later with the script, but also he gets into the humanity of those guys and and and the cap or the their leader and all that kind of stuff. But he he goes across the whole spectrum of respect and criticism.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

I just think he's a very curious person, and he does a lot of really he does really does his due diligence into certain aspects, whether it's the tech industry or whether it's physics, you know. I can clearly see him as somebody who goes to real people and has really extensive conversations with them, and he just tries to pull out all the most interesting stuff, and I see it in all of his work, yeah. And seeing Kenton is like a perfect example of that.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

Does it come into your head the mic from breaking bad Kenton thing? The old ex military, uh unassuming, but kind of sort of badass.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

It's weirdly different to me. Yeah, because I think in the same way, I think that er what's his name? Airman trout. It's more about old police, not necessarily old military, especially not old intelligence.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

I was gonna say, yeah, because they allude that he was a sniper in the war, but his big story is he was just a cop. He's a Philly cop. Oh yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

It was a he was a nom, right? He was a nom sniper or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

And I can't speak to that specifically, but I can definitely speak to I mean, that character has never been like around the world and watched the fall of like communist China and what you know, like that breaks your brain in a very, very different way than just like great another day out on the beat of Philadelphia, which can also fuck your shit up. Yeah. But it's a different thing when you when you observe it on a global like start. And and I believe the next episode will have another story from him where he will very go deeper into like his kind of understanding of the world the way the way it is. Can you guys tell me what my least favorite thing about this show is without knowing what it is?

SPEAKER_00 59:30

If you had to guess, other than the main character, it's the main character, yeah. Lily.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Oh, that's literally was it.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

I'm just curious. Yeah, so we I think that's everybody's whole detective. Coming back into it. I think that's everybody's like, and I think it is a voice thing. I think we've nailed it down. And again, I for I keep forgetting to do fucking research to look up this lady's other stuff.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Well, I have. Okay. I did watch House of the Dragon, I did watch Hot D. Oh. And I do know her from that. It's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

So she's cast an Elden Ring, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

What this is I saw that. Of course, yeah. My pro my big problem with the show is that you have she's very wooden is what she is.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

It's those those, you know, Alex Garland protagonists.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Devoid of emotion and charisma. But here's the problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

And on charismatic, that's your your your pull.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Yeah. You also have Kenton that is also like depleted of and then you also have Forrest and Katie that are also and they're all for different reasons. I can't tell you what the main character's reason is, other than I don't think she's a good actress. But Forrest and Katie, the way I see it, is that they know what happens next. And there's something about so, like in video games, when you're making a game, if you if it's not balanced, if just one weapon is off, every person playing it will find it and they will exploit it until they are bored shitless with the game, and then there's a like like you have to perfectly balance everything out right. Knowing what happens next deprives you of novelty, which human beings need. Like you need to you need surprise in in in your life. And if you don't get it, you look like these fucking two that are just like, well, whatever happens, happens. There's one variable that they're unaware of, but everything else they know. So that's why they're that's what my opinion of why they're they have that like monotone kind of expression. Katie specifically Forrest had like a big trauma that's completely shaped his life, so maybe he's like that, but it seems like they're kind of the same zombie.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:43

It's also to me, because I was thinking, I was like, well, uh, is it a gender thing? I was like, no, Katie, there's more going on that I don't know, and I'm intrigued when you see her stone face, when you see her quiet, when you see her just with a look, I'm just like, there's so much in there. And then when we get to the main character, I'm like, I don't think there's anything in there. And I think that's and I don't want to know what's in there. No, I'm not drawn.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

I th I think she's just naive. She is the person who is lost, she's in over her head, she's like the chaos agent without knowing that she's the chaos agent. She's she's like the the dupe. She's the mark who just wanders into this giant fucking set of machinations that are these the circumstances of the show, and she's gonna fuck shit up unwittingly. So I I think it's I think Dave is right in terms of the facial acting is great. She it's a it's an odd voice that takes me out of it. Sorry, but but I do agree with you where oversaturation. Where there's there's not that kind of weight or history behind her eyes, but I think that's the I think that's the character. I think she's supposed to be that. She's a young cryptographer, whatever the fuck that is. She has no idea of what's going on. So I I think it it works. And I'm coming over I'm coming around this time a little bit more. I I'm like, oh yeah, it's just she's got an odd voice and it takes me out of it. But sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:15

Yeah, but I mean everybody has this problem, and this is a universal problem with the show. Every person where I'm like, and and by the way, despite that, I still love the show more than absolutely anything. Like my the fact that I don't like the main character and that it doesn't affect yeah, keep me from things is amazing. Yeah, it's a testament to how good it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

There's there's another version of the show where um uh what's his name? Ron Swanson's the main character, Nick Offerman. Nick Offerman's the main character, and it's just okay, we kill the guy, we gotta get the cops off our back, we gotta get the DEA or the FBI, like the government intrigue is the the force trying to break into what I'm doing here, and it's a race against the clock of we gotta do this before they get in and figure it out. That's another version of this show, and instead he's giving us this naive character that's slowly maybe gonna find it out or figure it out, and she's not like uh she's not like Kenton equipped, she's not government equipped, she's just a scrappy kid, and i i it's not the most fun of the show when we get to her stuff. It's I'm not mad when it starts coming up, but I am like I'd rather be in the room, I'd rather be with Kenton, I'd rather Katie uh talk down to people, like I'd rather be hanging out with literally everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

There's another problem with this too, which is uh she has to be special, like deeply special for reasons that we'll find out like later on, but she's not special. The way she's performed, the way she's doing it, like that is is a flaw in the show, and one that I very much overlook. But so we'll take this example, this episode is an example. She outwits a really, really um a good spy, yeah somebody that has a lot of history in involving this, and um he outwits her, which she he is not gonna like at all. Yeah, but but and this is where the writing supersedes the character and the performance and everything like that. He gives you everything that happened in the last episode. It tricks me.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

Like the when she s she's she starts talking about this Russian spy that she met, and she gives Kenton she scares him, but then she offers him leverage against her. It's really so smartly written. Yeah. If she went in there and she's just like, I'm crazy, you know, and she you know, she's not Bringing up all the stuff we already saw in the episode before, this doesn't work half as well. None of it makes sense. Because then you just go, wait, she's outwitting the super spy. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah. But she gives him exactly what he needs. He's just so desperate to have any reason to not kill her. Yeah. And the only reason he feels that way is because Forrest, who's kind of his master, this is the thing about these guys too. They fucking they love to be a part of something grand. As long as they they're in servitude, like they love it. Yeah. It's it's baked into them. So the fact that he's like yes or no, that makes him feel good. That's where the only thing he's getting his dopamine kick is protecting Forrest. I mean, he loves Forest, but because he had done this his entire life, and now he's just jumped over into another another version of it. So just that she hands him leverage against her that he can use. He's just like, cool, we're done. We're done here. I don't have to do any more bullshit. Like, yeah, it's so perfectly written.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Yeah, it is great. And I'd forgotten. I was like, oh yeah, what'd you why'd you have schizophrenia i because I hadn't seen it, you know, since it was. And then I was like, oh yeah, okay, okay. But again, it's one of those luck things, I think, right? So she has these plans that are very well laid out. Maybe she's smart enough to plant the seed of these schizophrenia. You you're giving this company this guy leverage, which could eventually backfire on him because it's bullshit, uh, intentionally. But also, like, could it's also a coincidence she's saying the stuff about the Russian and she doesn't know that he was there watching, right? Right. And I don't know if she's even thinking, like, oh, I bet you Kenton was following me. Maybe now she will because you know the she knows that she cannot outspart him.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

So the best thing for her to do is just to give up all the information, but then add the fact that she's also had experiences in the past. She also knows that he will not believe her if he tells her, so she brings a friend along that is using his cover story. Again, this is from a narrative perspective, from a writing perspective. Yeah, because he had to sit down and just go, okay, he has to outwit the super spy, and there's no way that's possible. So I need to create all this deniability, there's all this plausibility into this factor. And I have to make it so though Kent would Kenton would just desperately want to get that information so badly, he's willing to overlook, which doesn't last long because he is ruthless and like her plan is layered because it has to be as soon as she walks on campus, she's implementing the plan.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

When her friend sees her and follows her, and they're talking to her manager, that is a setup. Yeah, yeah. Her friend telling her manager, exactly. So it's very, very in-depth, very smart.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:51

Yeah, but he has to also do this because she has to be special for this show. Sure. And again, that to me falls flat. There's nothing you can do with this character. There's something that the actress is not doing in this performance that is not giving me the like, I'm rooting for you. I don't know if you ever watched any episodes of girls, but it was this just this hilarious thing where Lena Dunham would just do all this horrible shit and her friends would be like, We love you. It's like, why? What's the fucking no, they don't like everybody's horrible in the show. Like she just writes this in so that they can, you know, like because it needs to happen for the show. But this show is trying to do that, it's trying to make Lily special. People, these guys are all fawning over her, she's you know, all these other things, but it's like the performance is not giving me that, and that bums me out. It's the it's the one flaw in this, but I'm willing to overlook all of it, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:43

I'm so curious, yeah, to see how it evolves as I rewatch it because I'm I'm I'm feeling more forgiving on this second rewatch because it's good. The first time I was just like, I don't buy this lady once, but I don't remember all the the the the entire plot machinations and how yeah, there's big chunks of this show.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:01

I I don't remember. I I'm just like you, I forgot the schizophrenia thing. So when they started going, I was like, I don't is this a take shelter thing? Like I don't remember that being part of the story. I was like, what the hell's going on? Yeah, and I was still confused at the end. I was like, wait a second. I was slow on that for sure. Yeah. How do you like the government stuff? I think, yeah, I was gonna say, I I'm gonna guess you love it. How do you like it, Nick?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

Yeah, I think it's I I forgot that again it ties in, but yeah, I enjoy it. And I it's again an accuracy thing. You know what I mean? You have this uh what if she mentioned, like tech corporation oversight committee or something like that, you know, and and it's like, oh yeah, those are real. They always pull CEOs in front of Congress to ask them questions about stuff that's harming the American people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's just very accurate. And yeah, you have Forrest, who's just like, okay, sure. I'm just gonna predict the weather exactly fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

See, this is the coverage. Yeah, they also do this really smart thing where she just goes, What you don't like America? You see where this is going, right? Like, she's just like, see how I can do this? And he's like, Bitch, you have no idea what you're up against. Sure, fine. Yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

Yeah, no, I liked the um, what are you doing, like uh quantum computers for like the stock market? He's like, sure. And she goes, or like the weather, he's like, Yeah, that too. I don't know. Like he was so dismissive of like, yeah, and those sorts of things, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:28

Yeah, I I love the kind of just yeah, it's zero fucks. Like, I just this is not what I'm here for, and this is extremely important work, and talking to people like you is just useless.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

Yeah, yeah. It's just what do I have to do to make you go away? Is like literally like it's you're just another American with a handout.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Yeah. Because the show did it, it it did both angles of it, which I thought was hilarious. Is okay, there's new tech. The government goes, how do we use this to kill people? And then the dude is like, how do we do this to look at tits? Like they did the tech goes two ways quick. It goes government contract and porn immediately. And the show's like, well, yeah, obviously, we're gonna talk about that. God bless America.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Steward is my second favorite character. Well, also, that actor, what a fucking find. You mentioned this earlier, where it's just like, yes, he's been probably in things your entire life. It's kind of like um Gus Fring, right? It's like been in forever, and then you get that one performance, and then everyone's like, Where's this guy been? Oh, we could use this guy, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's so good and he's so distinctive from the other tech people. Yeah. I think somewhere down the line we do get like a little window into his life, briefly. But I remember something like that. They all kind of have different aspects of like tech engineers. It's kind of like if you're watching like um Silicon Valley, like that show. Like each one is kind of a representation of a trait of it. His is kind of more slightly more anarchistic. He does not like the fact, and he knows it that they have broken the rules. And he he's constantly like poking Katie to get her to just be honest about it. Like, I think that's Stuart's thing, where he's just like, what are we doing? Like with the you know, I'm a I'm a 60s commune fucking programmer here. Uh I know we're breaking the world, but like we're all supposed to share in this. This is pageantry, which we're doing right now. And I'm gonna watch a bunch of crazy shit when you come in just to fucking poke you. Yeah, because it bugs me that you're that you're being hypocrites. Yeah. About he can't he's constantly doing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:46

Um, just wants him to admit it. You know what I mean? It's just like, why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:50

Yeah, he he's the mirror in a in a in a sense, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm super glad in this episode we've we're finally getting a little bit more tits peak. Well, obviously, C drain. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Taking me back to my all eight-year-old of us were like, well, yeah, I've I've done more with less. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:11

Those old TVs. But yeah, I I I like seeing that we're getting more glypses into their personality, and and that'll develop as it goes. And speaking of the static y tits, just the cold open on this episode fucks me up. It's one of the coolest cold opens of any episode of any time for a distressing amount of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

It's really disturbing to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

The screaming of them being burned. I was just like, No, that's Alex. That's Joan of Arc. No, that's what yeah, I'm like, this like you're gonna creep.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

If you think that you guys had watched the wrong episode because it does the it's but it but it also the brilliance of that also is taking you into the minds of these programmers that are listening and watching this, yeah, and they're on the break of it. But you know, uh, I can't think of what the the young girl's name is, but um William. I forgot her the actress Kaylee. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but she's listening to that sound every day, all day long, trying to break it. Yeah, doing the audio stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:14

Yeah, it's and the the sequence of like man doing the first art, putting his footprint and or his handprint against the fucking cave wall, and then it cuts to the fucking pyramids being built, like in just the fucking shot choice of that pyramid. I'm just like, how is this beautiful and amazing and awe-inspiring? And it's fucking black and white, CGI static. And then you cut to Jesus, who, yeah, we got to see him up on the cross last time, but now he's fucking speaking, yeah. He's like moaning in pain, and yeah, speaking fucking Aramaic. Yeah, Aramaic, and like and then you cut to the Romans fucking marching, you cut to Joan of Arc, fucking burning at the stake, which that sound comes back later, and you cut to fucking Abraham Lincoln at the Gettysburg Address, and then you cut to Amaya blowing fucking bubbles, and you're like, oh shit, okay, now what? Is Forrest watching this? And then you cut to fucking uh Sergei being fucking strangled. Yep, like and just the screaming and then the sound cuts out, it it's very much I love it. The sound design is so fucking good.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:25

Yeah, uh I know it's separated, but the score. If you asked me in the early 2000s who would be the perfect person for doing like scoring, I would have told you Johnny Greenwood, and I would have told you Port Is Head. Yeah, those two were so like just those early Portis Head albums, there's very few, but like it had such an ambiance to them. Yeah, and to to see that kind of manifest, and then of course the Johnny Greenwood thing, like immediately. I'm like, of course, yeah, of course, makes sense. Like those two, not hate Radiohead, Johnny Greenwood specifically, yeah. Yeah, um, but the funny is like stage. Like I've seen Radiohead both of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

This isn't what if you told me, yeah, Portishead did the score. This ain't what I'm thinking. I'm not thinking annihilation. You know what I mean? Like that's not what I would have thought, and it's the same with Johnny Greenwood. I don't know if you told me Johnny Greenwood did a score. I don't know if I would have thought the the there will be blood percussion. Right. I don't know if I go there in my head, and then now I I have it, I'm like, oh, it makes so much sense. Yeah, but that's not what I would have thought, which is uh feels good.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Yeah. Well, I mean, I just think they both know the absence of sound can be really interesting too. Like they're not they're not showboating, they don't have to. Yeah, I think that's the thing where it's I feel like if you're somebody who does soundtracks, you're like, I gotta be on every aspect of it. But if you're Johnny Greenwood and you've been touring for like 30 fucking years, you're just like, all right, we can just sit here in silence. That's more interesting too.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

And and understand dissonance, like the like we're we're we're gonna go left instead of right. Like, I'm not playing into the emotion, I'm playing into something completely different. Yeah. That like John Williams or Han Zimber, those type of more uh bombastic classically trained, those guys don't get it. Um I forgot his name, but one of the guys from Daft Punk helped on uh Irreversible. Oh wow. And he worked on like low stuff frequencies to like purposely unsettle you and like hurt your stomach and your head in those like really gross scenes. Effective, right? Yeah, it did it. But yeah, it's it's always cool when you see uh things like that get pulled. Because yeah, no, I'm I'm still uh I'm a big Portis Head fan and I feel horrible that I didn't know that this is that guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

I I I did I did dummy uh like I think a few weeks ago for just no reason whatsoever. I revisited that being around at that time and that also being my kind of rap era, it's better drops, yeah, better samples in dummy than there are in anything I can think of. Oh, yeah. On any like hip hop album that I can think of. I gotta check it out. Uh this fire, I think, if you want to check like hit that one and just a little record, it's fine. The drops are just like, whoa, nice. Before I even knew that term or that concept or anything like that, I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

Yeah, I said it last time, but uh their their live album that's probably my favorite live album. You can't really like it, it just sounds perfect to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

Sticking with the the images and and that scene uh with Marilyn Monroe's boobies. I love Pill's character saying, uh, just do the grassy knoll or something instead. Yeah, and then find another nerd itch. Find another geek itch. Where he did it, and yeah, it's like, oh, it was Oswald, and she goes, Whatever. Like just one of the biggest conspiracies or and events in American history, and just her saying, whatever. I just I love that just fucking dismissal of it. She didn't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

Unlike Forrest, who has its own issues, I genuinely think that Katie is so angry that she has had life removed from her. Like whatever passion she had about like what comes next has been removed, and she's so bitter. Yeah, about saw past the key. Like the I and this is the part that is the most amazing thing in the world because on its face, this is basically a tech death cult. Like they have uncovered something, it's it's a cult that they you know, they all kind of act and talk in that kind of very like strange way.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:33

Oh, and you have the the machine itself is the altar in the center of the cube. Yeah, it's very religious.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

When I saw that, I was like, it's a bit much. Then you look up what a a quantum computer looks like, it looks like that. Yeah, you're just like, Holy fuck, you couldn't have designed that, but like it just is. Which is annoying. I'm so stupid.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

And I look at that, I'm like, I don't why how is that a computer?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:53

I don't right now. See it to me, it looks like fucking sand castles from the VHS cover of The Little Mermaid. That's all I think about when I see that. Seriously, yeah, like the fucking weird the evaporators on tattooing.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

Yeah, the moisture evaporators, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:08

Yeah, it's just a weird design, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they basically just took that design and just expanded the gold and the the glass and everything out to the entire rest of the thing. Yeah, you know, but but yeah, that's what it looks like, which is just absolutely yeah, it's that's very accurate.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

Um, if you if you had this machine, what would you look at?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:27

Oh, a bunch of stuff. All that stuff that they looked at. The Jesus, yeah, the Kennedy for sure. Dinosaurs. How fucking cool that would be. I mean, I don't know if I could go back 65 million.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

That's what I would do on my lunch break. I would watch dinosaurs on my lunch break. And you'd watch porn for work. Um yeah, I'm definitely watching, like, yeah, I gotta see some crazy shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

But in the city, I gotta watch Alexander the like but in the same way that porn fucks your shit up, oh, of course too will absolutely wreck you infinitely.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:58

Yeah, I'm you're just I'm fucked up watching the idea of it. Yeah, it's a fictional television shoot. Yeah, that there's something about static and the fucking sound design mixed with the score, and it's a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

It's at hand effect because it's in it's in annihilation as well. Yeah, you can clearly tell that like the his I visual ideas from from this kind of wheel into other stuff. It's like become his kind of design aesthetic. Exactly. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

You know what's funny is I've I forgot this today um at therapy, and I was waiting. I go to the bathroom and then I ring the doorbell and I wait, and I was just on Twitter real quick, uh, waiting for her to get the door, and I swear to god, I'm just reading like, you know, people are talking about Elden Ring, Avengers Doomsday, uh, Drake's new album coming out, just random stuff. And then there's just a video of a guy just getting stabbed sitting at a restaurant, and I was like, Don't watch this before you go into there, like literally, you're not allowed to watch this. And I was like, I was like, why is I wish he would have caught you? I know, because it came up, and just my brain just was like, Oh, well, you know what's gonna happen, but maybe we should watch just in case. And the guy got stabbed, and I was like, What are you doing, man? Why are you watching this right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:16

But that is a very that is an interesting parallel to this. It's like we do have these little windows into everything going on in the world in real time at all times. And how is going back and seeing Jesus any more iconic or more interesting than you watching somebody get stabbed in McDonald's or like something to that effect? Like, yeah, we are really speeding up in this very scary way about like visibility of the world. We're doing that in a way already all the time. Like the fact that it's to me, I don't know if it's even that special to look back 2,000 years ago in in light of the fact that you can look at literally anything going on all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:54

Yeah, there was I sorry, William would look up 9-11 all the time. I don't know how I missed that, but let's just get that on the right. Honestly, no, uh to be completely honest. I'm a million percent looking up the fucking Pentagon. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, we're gonna take this shit out real quick, guys. Buckle the fuck up. But like I remember uh I believe it's Peter Jackson did that World War I movie where he took that archival footage and like colorized it. There was honestly a part of me that like shrugged, and I was like, I don't know. Whatever. Right. Like of all the things I've seen, he's like, no, it's like World War. I was like, I don't know, man. Like things I've seen on the internet that's not doing it for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

Yeah, because that was just capturing shit from back in the day.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:43

Uh I get how that is honestly, it is mind-blowing, but I just didn't care. Yeah, you want to go back to the big stuff. There's things like legally not allowed to say, yeah. The amount of uh illegal things I've seen lost, like tears in the room. Exactly, yeah. And 20 years ago I hope they're lost. Hard hard drive. Dude, don't even joke about the NSA is listening. I'm legitimately gonna cut that out because I'm scared that you just said that I'm cutting that out because it changed subject, Josh. What did you think of uh whatever the fuck happened? The guy, the so fake fire. What did you think of fake fire? Talk about anything else.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

You guys talked about uh uh in um Heat, your episode of Heat, you talked about the new guy that they bring on, and he says, like, I'm gonna f like he's being like an edge lord, and they're like, shut the fuck up, yeah, kind of thing. The what you can see when Kenton is talking to the other guy, there's a version of it where that is the point of the story, but I don't think it is because that guy exists too, he's a real one as well as Kenton. They're both in the same category.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:59

Is it adrenaline junkie? That aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:02

It's the conversation that he's trying to kind of convey. And I don't know if it just kind of worked its way up to that joke. There's like kind of a payoff in the end where he's like, Oh, you're so fucking lucky, you know, that you did this. Also, seeing Kenton go out on the ledge in the way he's very casually doing it. Yeah, and then I hated how it crossed over that bar. He walks around her. Yep. Like to walk quite like a second like lighting a cigarette. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's this. I I I work with a guy and who was like this, and you could just see this like dead funniest guy that you could possibly imagine because he really didn't care. Like, he really looked like all the adrenaline was just taken from him, and only in like I watched him punch people at parties when they were on their phone, like just punch them square, like square up like he's talking to us, and go out and just fucking deck this guy in the in the chin while he's on his phone. He goes, Hey, you're here, you're hanging out with us, and he's like, Oh my bad. Like going over to him, just dumb. He tried to kiss me a handful of times, like for comedy purposes, sure, in a way that I was like, God, that's so good. Like he's like, All right, here's what all here's what we're doing. He goes, You guys are gonna go do out, you're gonna do this, you Josh gonna come with me, and then he does that like lean-in thing, and I'm like, What are you doing? He's like, No, okay, anyway. So that's awesome, deeply racist as well. That's why Nick loves this. We'd go, we we'd be outside, like hanging out.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:29

Florida again, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:31

Uh, this is in Virginia, close enough. Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina. Um, anyway, yeah, I'm just we're at a outside at a in a hotel, like all of us hanging out, and a bunch of black dudes like come out and start smoking, and he just gets up and just walks over to them, and we're like, what's about to happen? Like, we're really scared because we know him, yeah, and we know he's crazy, and we know he's racist. Oh no. And he'll go out there for like five. Minutes we're all fucking sweating profusely. Like, are we all gonna get into a fight? I'm not fighting for that guy, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then he comes over with a cigarette and he's just like, So what are we talking about? Like, you know that we feel that way, and that's why, like, yeah, that's so genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Just to freak you out.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:16

But anyway, just somebody that just was so just they don't have that like look in their eyes. It was so crazy to see the way this guy is portrayed in that way. And I'm just like, oh my god, that's so exact.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:26

Well, and I I love with Kenton how in the last episode we see him, or sorry, in the previous episode, episode two, we see him kill the Russian operative guy, and we know he got stabbed. Yeah, he gets up and he's holding his side still. But now unless we just see it every once in a while when he's jumping over the rail, you can tell, like, okay, that kind of hurt a little bit. When he's getting up from the chair or whatever, like yeah, just little hints, but not nothing more than that. She's like, Oh yeah, I just sewed it up, I'm fine. Doesn't matter. Yeah, even though he got stabbed and murdered somebody again. Yeah, killed two people now. Yeah, yeah. This is the first episode where he hasn't killed someone. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

Yeah, that's why it looks so bored in this episode. That's why he was so quick to get on the ledge. He's like, Hell yeah, my push is now.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

Yeah, exactly. And just I love the way this show is shot and just seeing him like in his darkness while she is explaining to me, and he's like, Really? Yeah, like the way he's processing the information. But you also see how excited he is to go to Forrest to tell him what he learned. Yeah, and that he's you know what I mean? So it's just like a leverage again. These people love they love that service, yeah, like service to a higher, to a higher, you know, whatever, whatever that thing is. Like they really that's the thing that they kind of live for. Simplify. So good.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:46

Yeah, and it in this episode, it really hit me how much Nick Offerman looks like a pug dog. Yeah, he's got dog face. There was one shot, and I'd never put it together. That's there's something about the way the hair shapes his face, and he had like this frowny lip and his eyes were bulging out. I'm like, he looks like a pug. Yeah, he's got scrunchy face, yeah, yeah. But in I've never put it together until something about this episode last night. I was just like, he's a pug.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:12

Because again, without giving anything away, that there is something special about Lily, and he is aware of it, and so this is the also the only thing that he's just like broke the fucking universe.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:25

You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what he says. That's the hint of the line, right? Yeah, yeah. You almost broke the universe, yeah. And that's the thing. If Forrest wasn't there and if the senator wasn't there, and all those that group of people that are watching Lily, yeah, if Kenton knew about it, he'd knock around. I think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:42

I honestly think like Well, no, because the girls in the room. I don't even think he would have cared. Maybe, yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:48

He just has this like chaos agent thing where it's just like not chaos.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:52

Well, it's extreme order.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:55

I was gonna say he heard that you could look at that going, this sorts itself out right here. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. That's the order.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:01

Yeah, it's just this like it all just makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:04

He'll go there for for the for the ends, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for justifies. I get that.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:09

Yeah, on the DD alignment, the like lawful order. Yeah, justify anything, yeah, lawful just to make the universe make better, whatever, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, wanted to propose a question to you guys. I probably should have tried to look it up, but but what the fuck is with Age of Aquarius? Oh yeah. I don't know. I don't know the relevancy.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:30

I was like, why well I think it's isn't it related to needle drops? First of all, is it is it? I am Age of Aquarius, you think so?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:39

I don't know anything about that song except it's in 40 year old virgin. Oh, yeah, that's the whole thing. I only know it from that. Yeah. But it He's weird with needle drops. He purposely picks something that is uh not it doesn't fit. Like he likes doing that. I gotta figure out all civil war.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:56

Because he's such an intentional guy, you know what I mean? It's gotta make sense, and it leads into the end of the show where we're seeing them perpetrate yeah, uh the the cover up backwards where you see how many fucking people are in it. It's like fucking eight people, yeah, and you get that amazing fucking shot of this the Amaya statue of the burning, yeah, and like she just looks evil as fuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:18

Every episode they have like a different angle of that thing, and it's just so grotesque and compelling, and it's it clearly by design, you know. Yeah, like let's make it really fucking scary. And again, it's just this like all the things that Forrest is doing, the his his kind of giant plan is for her, and it's like, would your daughter be okay with this? Because she's looking at you right now, like you're looking at her, she's looking at you, yeah, and you know, from wherever, heaven, whatever you know, whatever the the deal is, this giant statue, it's shit that you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:48

Yeah, she wasn't baptized.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:49

You know, you're killing people, you're you know, you're doing all these kind of awful things, and that that's kind of you know, road to hell paved with good intentions, kind of no, exactly. Which I again, stories I genuinely love. I love watching decent people get defiled by their like you know, their attempt to make the world better. Like, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:07

Because it always boils down to selfishness and it's yeah, it's yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:10

It's such a because we're human, so ripe for for awfulness.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:14

I love it. Exactly. Drama.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:17

Uh yeah, any random stuff as we're yeah, I'm pretty sure that we at this point in all you guys watching are really tapping into his Alex Garland's like thing. He clearly likes androgynous girls. Like in when you see I mean it just keeps it's it's the thing that just keeps on happening over and over and over again. Yeah. I don't think he's doing it intentionally, uh you know, but when you know, when um in ex Machino and he's like, Oh, you you got my porn profile, I'm like, I think we got your born.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:54

Yeah, I was gonna say I I didn't know Danny Boyle let you do casting for 28 days later and it started that far back.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:00

Like But making all these these very pretty girls look like boys and giving them short haircuts and things like that, I just think which I mean I wouldn't pull that thread, but like it's clearly that androgynous look is true.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:16

I was gonna say he's older than us because I remember point break uh being confusing to me. She was a short haired cutie with the the big eyes, and I was like, I don't like the boy stings.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:29

By the way, time you motherfucker. I've seen her at conventions, and it is yeah rough.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:35

Yeah, it gets us all. Oh god. Except Nick, look a cute Nick look little cutie pie.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:41

Do you make actual do you make conscious decisions on when to grow beards and when not to and when to grow your hair out?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:46

Um, yeah, I'm in a real rough period right now. So I haven't gotten a haircut because I had shingles and the shingles were on my head. So I literally had to wait for the scabs to heal. I'm getting haircut on Friday. And with my beard, I usually just let my barber trim my beard. But it's just been so ridiculous this past month, uh six weeks. Yeah, so it's it is it's I'm in a fallow period. I wanted to grow it out a little bit, but then I'm it's fucking hot. I'm just gonna cut it off. It's just too hot already. Sure. But yeah, I do I do make conscious decisions about it, and I'm not happy with where it is right now. For for a shlubby person who dresses very plainly, I do con I do consciously think about those kind of style choices, even if they're just like uh I'm gonna wear my silly crocs, I don't give a fuck. But the fact that I lost an earring in the shower the other day and I was wearing gold earrings for a long time because they match my gold ring and my watch and the tan color of my glasses, and so I put in my black earrings, and then it's really bugging me. Uh because it doesn't match anything. Because you're off. Yeah. So I do consciously think about that, even though I look like a fucking crazy personality. A little bit, the band.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:02

I just know if it was a laziness thing or if it was just a it this is it's literally just a logistics.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:09

I don't want to go to my barber when I have fucking uh uh scabs on my fucking head. Good call. So yeah, I was just trying to be nice. But yeah, I look like an insane person right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:18

No, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:19

I think so. I was telling him I was literally I've been so much stuff has been going on, I've been having to knock my head to think about what I'm trying to pull up. And I was doing that in the library. I go to the library on my break. Oh, yeah, on my lunch breaks to write and all this stuff. And I was doing that at the library, and William's like, you can't do that. No, not with that beard. Not with that beard. You can't be that guy because there are those guys in the library. Of course there are. And I was just like, valid point, I'm gonna stop doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:43

Yeah, all three of us look like a guy that's a problem in the library by himself, like different versions of we're on a list of 48. I don't give a shit. Yeah, so like I don't care if I look like an asshole in the library. Someone check the cachet when he gets off that computer. We might as well make some calls.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:58

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're going in and asking about assault rifles. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:03

Yeah. Does bump stock have a hyphen? Nick's just looking up age of consent laws county by county. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:14

Just knocking on my head, writing it on a little note card and putting it in your sock, scribbling it, clearing my throat a bunch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:22

Now I'm just looking up how to make women stop squirting every time getting sex. I'm running out of laundry soap. Yeah, I'm going in debt.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:32

Yeah, looking over your shoulder.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:34

How to stop getting migraines every erection because my penis is so large. Yeah. Blood loss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:41

Um, any any other random things, William?

SPEAKER_00 1:37:44

Uh yeah, yeah. Let's just say we we got officially there's two rules. Oh don't look forwards, only back, okay, and don't invade privacy. Yes. Yes. Establish rules to this, which means those are the things you break.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:58

Her comeback is great, right? With the oh, let's just bring everybody in here and watch you, Stuart. And he's like, hmm. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there, he's a genuine like pause of like, okay, you know what? Like, fair enough. But yeah, I I love that line. Your hangups are not my hangups. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:14

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:15

It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:16

And it's accurate for people, yeah. It's just a very honest answer. And to again, honesty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:22

He's trying to be as forefront as possible, and he does not like it when people I think that's kind of his shtick.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:29

And it's uh not that I could relate, but there's a little spectrum-y to the logic argument of like we're talking emotional states, arousal. It's the same as this one, so it's kind of sort of the same thing. Like, I was like, I see what you're doing. Yeah, sex is normal.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:46

Sex isn't that big of a deal. Without it, we wouldn't all be here. Yeah. But he's still looking at Mary Wimmerl. Fuck, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

Yeah, because it is that thing of like after the after that comment and Katie leaves, you know, he did that like from the side of his face, smiled at the girl, like, eh, yeah. It's on the fucking screen. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Got a rest.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:05

Yeah. I uh the show's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:07

I'm it's a fucking banger. It is a real despite something that would knock off any other show of mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:14

Like literally any other show, if it was the main character I didn't like. I could probably name like four or five shows where I was like, I'm not watching this. Yeah, I don't like these people. Sons of Anarchy. The pilot episode is him buying like the first four minutes, he buys Trojan Max condoms and winks at the the gas attendant that he buys them from. And I was like, I'm not watching this show. I immediately turned it off. I was like, I'm not watching a biker with a big dick buy condoms and then like wink. I was like, this show's not for me. Yeah, I know it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:49

I the the level of intelligence from every character, and and I think Alex Garland does this too. Uh so my boss, friend of the show, Ken is a giant. I he was constantly pressing us because I, you know, we'd write characters that I felt were really unstable or not that smart, and he's like, no, every character we write is smart, whether they are or not. Like they will say these the most intel, they don't have to be brain scientists, you know what I mean? That'd be neurologically, but everything that you write that comes out of any of these all my characters' mouths, it will be very, very, very smart.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:27

Yeah. Um, you know, even when they're not, I and I kind of go see his point, you know, even when you're making because you really don't want your audience being like, Well, I would never do that. Like, Alex Garland really thinks that through.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:39

It's tough to write this many characters, intelligent and unique. Yeah, it's really real it people that have never uh tried to write any sort of script of any form short or long, like that's probably the first mistake everybody makes is going, oh, we all sound just everyone sounds like me.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:59

Because I wrote it. So everyone's is just that's William in address, that's William old in address, that's William Young in a shorter dress. Like it's it's everything is just you. All three don't know how to do this, yeah. Yeah. So for him to write this many intelligent people uniquely.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:17

I don't think there's any of the things that you've watched or any things you will watch from him where there is an idiot character. No, he's not interested.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:26

He's not interested in exploring that necessarily. Yeah. And yeah, this this third episode after the cold open, it kind of hit me where I'm like, fuck. It is so goddamn impressive that he wrote all eight episodes and directed all eight episodes of this show. Yeah, that is an insane amount of work. It is just fucking crazy. So it's just it's highly impressive, and we gotta I I think it just needs to be stated and remind remind folks, this isn't like the TV shows that we've watched in the past where a different writer, it's like a writer's room, and then no teams of directors or teams of writers. This is all Alex.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:03

When you go to IMDB, it there he has like three credit writing credits, it's like created by but like it just I was laughing at it because I was looking somebody up today and I was like, Oh, he's got three writing credits in there, and they're only his. Yeah, where normally you write any other show, even movies, there's like seven writers, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. This is just like no meow me. Yeah, I don't know how long it takes you to write eight hours of television, like that's this well constructed. There is also a lot of the derogatory term would be filler, yeah. And I don't think that there is that like extensively long opening, or there's just this entire sequence where they're reverse engineering the um the burning of the body. Yeah, yeah. It goes on for a really long time. It's compelling to look at it. He takes his time, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I uh really hats off to that because I feel like in a when if you're not doing it on FX where you're allowed to do those things, and it's not Alex Garland, you don't have carte blanche for all of this, that gets cut. That gets cut what's the point of this? Because we already know this happened. We already we already saw it happen normally. Then we find out what happened. There's no reason to have this other than vibes, and yeah, and and I'm I'm here for it. It's so different. And the next episode you'll see there's another like some opening shots where you're like, Why? And then you're like, I don't care, it looks cool. It pulls me into this very strange story about this, you know, basically death cult of tech people.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:33

I mean, uh they spend a long time on the ledge. Yeah, that's a long scene. Yeah, it's a lot, and it's just talking. Yeah, he takes his time. Even the murder of Anton, that was you know, like with no sound with the music over it, like that was a long scene too. Like he yeah, he's taking his time.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:52

Yeah, I still stress that he he loves Tarkovsky, like he loves Stalker, he loves Solaris. He that these things, I just I am seeing them constantly. Absolutely. He really loves that and he's trying to kind of make that happen. He like I'm curious if you guys clock later on in his like film stuff, kind of going forward after devs, do you see a difference in that in like civil war, a difference in that? Because I feel like it's a little more poppy. Oh, yeah, it's a little faster. Like this, yeah, live ended with men. This kind of like this storytelling style. Because when you go into civil war and you go into warfare and and 2800, I was gonna say and the two twenty uh script-wise.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:38

No, I I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah. There's a shift for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:42

Yeah, it's a different, it's a new period for sure. And yeah, I think that's a good opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:46

Right back to it with Elden Ring that it ends with man. I can't imagine him shooting Elden Ring will feel so much more like annihilation.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:52

Well, him him doing fantasy is gonna be fucking insane. I don't, I literally don't know what to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:58

I don't I I don't know. I know I'm gonna do it. The closest visual reference I can say sometimes if you've played the game and it's A24 is like Green Knight, the visual of you know, out in the woods, there's weird otherworldly stuff. The the I mean the whole end of that feels like it could be in this world. Someone made the joke online of Alex Garland's the worst person to do an Elden Ring movie because when he did Civil War, he did a movie about a schism and he didn't explain the motivations of the warring factions and what people are thinking and want. And it was very funny that he's just like he's kind of sort of built for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's pretty that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:37

But yeah, so next week we'll be back for episode four of Devs, and yeah, I will Blame and I will be on our own for I think four, five, and six.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:46

Nick's gonna kick my shit back. Nick's gonna get his lick back. Yeah, I was too smug on that uh atheism. And the whole is gonna get me back. I'm having a really bad time. I'm gonna come in next week. Nick, I you know, you can pick on me if you want, but I I'm really sad again. I'm not deterred by it. You're allowed if you want to be mean to me.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:07

Coming out swinging next week. Whatever. Uh but yeah, I love you.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:11

I respect all your opinions, and I just want to learn about them and talk to you about them. But yeah, if you want to be mean to me, you can, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:18

Yeah, no, we're fighting fist fighting. Why not? Everybody else does. First, first video episode. We'll be fist fighting. Yeah, Nick's just gonna be throwing things at me. Uh and then Josh will be back for episode seven, and Dave Jordan will be here for eight. So yeah, uh, you guys put up with our asses for a couple weeks here. But yeah, I'm love this show. Super fascinating to rewatch it. We'll be back next week. Thank you for joining us, Josh. Love you. Love it, you