SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hello and welcome to season ten of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two friends are talking. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You guys are best friends. I just think that's why I stopped. You guys are best friends. We stay best friends every time.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

He always skips over and he doesn't skip over it.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Well, this is staying in the intro now.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. I got that. I got it. I fucking got it. We'll do a live video.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I'm your buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Yeah. And today we'll be watching episode one of Dev's his television series that he both wrote and directed. It's on Hulu and FX. From 2020. I'm Nick, who loves Alex Garland. I'm William. I also love Alex Garland. And Dave, who just did the intro for us. Do you love Alex Garland? Just kidding. We know the answer you've been on this season.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

It's true. I have.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

But I'm trying to I appreciate that. That was a great intro.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

You know what? I've listened to a lot of episodes of this podcast. We're flattered. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yeah, we appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

I've been on a lot of episodes. I still bungle the intro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Well, it happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, that's how it goes. We're only 220 some odd in. So you've only done a hundred and something uh intros.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Over a hundred hours.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Well, I mean, not hours of saying the intro. Oh, this is true. This is true. Yeah, yeah. Just the podcasting, which we have gotten better at podcasting, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Oh, definitely. Maybe. You definitely have.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Well, that first season is just dog shit. Not only first season's not all the way dog shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

I listened to one of those episodes for a certain reason. I forgot which one. I think the season finale of Friday Night Lights. Because there was something I thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Season finale of the Friday Night Lights. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

The end of the whole series before we started banging. The end of season. I was like, this is one of the sh of it's not as bad as you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

No, but those first yeah, it took like a couple months, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

I actually went back because well, so I well, I just finished Better Call Saul. So I was listening to you guys, which you know, I know it wasn't like very early, but like for some reason I did listen to like a very early episode, and uh I I actually kind of was impressed at how much better you guys are doing it now than you were then. Not like you were bad, no, no, but like, yeah, it was very much like two people trying to figure out how to do a podcast. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the conversation's a little stilted, you guys don't have your flow quite in, you know, there's no therapy at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I know, it's become that. We missed out, I know. Yeah, I mean that's especially with Friday Night Lights, those themes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

I know you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Which actually I was gonna say, I almost commented on you're having a new pedal that's coming out. We usually sometimes do pedal talk with Dave since he's a pedal builder. It's true. But whatever you wrote and performed for your most recent pedal, which is called Regrets. Regrets. I literally was gonna comment saying, like, okay, I get it, you're auditioning for the Friday Night Lights reboot. No composer. Uh, because it literally was just like, dude, this sounds like it's very post-rock. It could be on that. Uh, and then I forgot to, and I just remembered it was a good one. And that's a Tim Riggins quote, no regrets. No ragrets. Yes. You should get a no ragrets tattoo. Yeah, should I? Uh-huh. But like the misspelled one, like you know, the white trash people. I guess. Yeah, I think it'd be cool.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

You think, yeah, white okay. So Nick on record said a white trash tattoo would be cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

I'm shocked. Who is surprised? Well, look, let's be real. There are some white trash tattoos that are not cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

That's true. Yes, that's just true. There are many, but no, and I just love the idea of an ironic tattoo that you have to explain to people. It's misspelled, yeah. Like people often misspell it. But I didn't know that that was a Tim Riggins quote. No regrets. Yeah. No idea.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yeah, you blacked out for the five seasons of a show. I I remember very well. We'll get back to it with season. Hey man, I I like Friday Night Light.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

That show's so fucking good. That show's so fucking good.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And yeah, speaking of of that, you how what did you think of Better Call Saul? Because we've never talked to you about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Oh, honestly, I loved it.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Um, there were a few spots that I didn't fully click with. Um, I think it was the beginning of season three or something, which you guys actually even talked about how it's like kind of a rocky beginning. It's like Mike out in the desert and stuff. And for that's the first one where like Vince Gilligan's Vince Gilligan's not helping write and stuff. So like I didn't even really know that going into that season, but there were parts of that season where I was like, Mike doesn't really feel right. Jimmy doesn't really like feel right. But in hindsight, those moments are so small compared to six seasons of like honestly, kind of near perfect television. It's crazy how good it is. I'm really curious to rewatch Breaking Bad now, but I have a hard time believing it's gonna stack up.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Like, I yeah, I feel this I feel like it can't.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Like, yeah, you know, because they just have so much practice under their belts having done breaking bad to hone their skills for that, also you know the thing about breaking bad is like I don't know, it's it's really hard to like root for Walt, and I don't think the stakes feel that real in a weird way. Like I know the whole thing is like it is cancer and all that, and like so they are real stakes, but like the span of breaking bad is supposed to be like a year, and he goes from like a chemistry teacher to like blowing up people in the course of like to into be being like a a cartel boss, basically. And it's like I don't know, there like I said, I'd be curious to rewatch it, but you know, you get to the point in Better Call Saul, which spoilers I guess, but like everything that happens with uh Howard and like I mean you you guys talked about it a lot on the podcast, but it's like the decisions these people are making and the legitimate weight that the actors are giving it is I don't remember that being in breaking pad at all, especially Kim and Jimmy. Like I I think I I'm not at all surprised that Vince Gilligan was like, Yeah, I'm gonna take this lady to be the lead in my new show. Yeah, because she is so good. Yeah, and she could have just been a throwaway. Like you guys talked about, you know, uh on the podcast. Like she could have just been the girlfriend that kind of like comes and goes, but she's the most interesting character.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, and they build a unique relationship that you don't often see until yeah, it's just not stereotypical in any way, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

But like l just filled with like legitimately believably complex people with real motivations with real weight, which like which that's why I would want to re-watch Breaking Bad, is like how much of that stuff are we forgetting?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah. Because I know that some of it is in there, like because we, you know, at least I do, I'll speak for myself. I think back to like the big moments and some of the funny stuff and and the big plot points, which a lot of which I've I've forgotten in terms of Walt's evolution and stuff, but like I'm like, there's gotta be some of that nuance in there, and it's they did some interesting stuff with Hank emotionally that you wouldn't consider knowing where he starts.

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Okay. Hank is more complicated with his like anxiety and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

And I know it's like Walt's like a prick, and then we all come, we come. I mean, that's kind of the part of the transformation of the show is who we empathize with changes from Walt to Jesse and all this kind of stuff. But like thinking of Gus's development in Better Call Saul, I'm like Gus, I don't I don't know how much of that's gonna be in Breaking Bad, and like I don't remember that much of it being in there.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

It feels like it felt like Breaking Bad hinges on cool.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah, Better Call Saul doesn't, like the Gus stuff is cool, like the craft of Better Call Saul. I mean, just like the way they handle the different timelines and like the the seriousness of it at times when it like it didn't have to be. Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of a shame that it was a breaking bad spinoff because I I legitimately think it was just so much better.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

Oh yeah, like in my memory, and yeah, it's fresh, but like it's I'm re-watching Mad Men right now, and that's all I'm thinking is every time Mad Men Mad Men's that show where in 50 minutes, out of nowhere, they'll just randomly drop a line where I'm like, that's one of the best written things I've ever heard. And I'm like, yeah, this is the best show ever. And then I'm like, it always makes me think of Better Call Saul of like these are the two more underrated shows when people start talking about like prestige drama.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

I mean, the big four, you know, the conversation's been had to death, but the big four of The Wire, the Sopranos, Mad Men and Breaking Bad, I legitimately think the wire and madmen are the ones that belong in that conversation. Yeah. I don't think Breaking Bad really holds up that well. And I I recently re-watched The Sopranos, and like while that was really important, it was kind of like the nirvana of Prestige TV. Like it was so important because it ushered in this big change, but as a show, it is extremely flawed.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

Last time I watched it, I was like, the the thing that stands out the most is like it's very funny, but as like a great drama, I was like, I don't think it is. And I know this is also a a run in the ground bit of like it's no one else is serious except Tony and maybe kind of sort of Christopher.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Polly Walnuts is like a Saturday night live sketch.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

Steve Van Z, like Spring City. They're Looney Tunes. It's silly. Yeah. And that's where I'm just like, no, this isn't on the level of the wild. It's a cusp show.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

It it it beg it ushered in the area of prestige television. So it's still has those, it still has the failings of broadcast television. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Well, there's also there's a huge flaw in the structure from season to season, and I didn't notice it before. I had to rewatch the show several times. And this time I realized what they were doing was at the beginning of every single season, they were introducing what I call like the human MacGuffin.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Where out of nowhere there is a character that we've never heard of. Heisty Buscemi. Yeah. Or um Joe Pantilaniano. Like this is somebody that is supposedly grew up with Polly and Tony that we've never heard of, and for some reason everybody knows and has always known forever. And it's multiple seasons in already, and it's multiple seasons in, and they do that every season. And they're only there as a plot device. They are not there for development or character. You know, the argument could be made that Joe Pantaliano is like a little bit interesting as a character. He is, he has depth, but like he is there only to exist for that season storyline.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

He's never brought up beforehand and never talked about again. Yeah. At the beginning of season four, I think, maybe season five, out of nowhere, Bobby Baccala, who has talked about his wife before once or twice, we meet her for the very first time, and she is killed instantly. Yeah. Because they needed to have a reason for Bobby to be sad to end up with Janice. And it's like, she is only there as the MacGuffin. Yeah, yeah. She is only there for that plot device. And like season after season after season, we were just like, this person shows up first first episode, and you're like, okay, I guess they're they're that person.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yeah, they're they're propelling the through line of the of the season.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Yeah. So so we do agree it should be in the orders debatable, but the wire. Yes. Better call Saul, Mad Men. Uh, what's the other one? I mean, we can leave the Sopranos and the Fragnet Lights. That's the instead of Breaking Bad. That would be the top five.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

I yeah. Isn't that is Better Call Saul like in the top four? I mean, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

I think it's better than Breaking Bad.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Oh, it's definitely better than Breaking Bad. It's definitely more deserving than Breaking Bad. Is it the top four show of all time? It's possible, you know.

SPEAKER_04 12:13

I can make a case for that, and I don't know of another one other than Deadwood?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Obviously, Friday Night Light. I mean, for me, Deadwood. Oh, yeah. I never finished Deadwood, but Deadwood beats out almost all of them, except for the wire.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

I know, yeah. You're a big Deadwood guy. But you're the only person that I've ever met in person who likes Deadwood. Really? Like, and it's not about anyone else dislikes it. I just never heard anyone else talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Look, yeah, at the time it came out, because it was post-sopranos, everybody was like, Oh, this is the Sopranos in the Old West. That's not what it is. Yeah, it's its own thing. It's very much its own thing. It's almost like a Shakespearean drama. Um, and like because I like Oliphant a lot, but he's great.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

Ian McShane is a median is unreal.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

He's incredible.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

That's on the list. I th I would say an underrated one. Uh the shield's on the list. The shield's so solid. Sure. Shield is really good. It's like Michael Chicklist because he looks like your father. Yeah. Um, and uh, what's his name? Uh that's where he got his he kind of came from. Yeah, Goggins came from that. I think uh your show would be on the list, even though it's uh debatable at the end, but Lost has to be on the list. Yeah, yeah. And we're not going we're not going uh we're going more because I'm like, shouldn't X-Files if we if we do have top ten, the X-Files should be on the top ten, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I love Lost. I've rewatched it. I don't know that it's a top tener or even just I don't know that it's a top four or top five or I don't I've never finished it.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

I just I remember the talk of it. That's kind of a seminal moment.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

You will eventually it is also very, very flawed. Yeah, it starts incredibly strong, but it does start to feel like the like hey, you guys didn't really know where you were going with this, and now you're kind of trying to fill it in. Yeah, you know, it starts to feel like that. But yeah, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Sopranos felt like that. It felt like it it's not the craziest ending where they end up with the the the family wars, but like it does at a certain point you're like, you could have done this in three. Yeah, there's fat in there where I'm just like, Did you guys not want to end it and not know how? So you're just kind of filling time. Also, am I crazy? You just rewatch this. Is his whole anxiety thing because he saw his mom's vagina? Like he saw her bush, and he has panic attacks when he eats like cut meats.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

I mean, he has panic attacks when he eats cut meats because he was associating that with his parents having sex.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

That's what it is. I was okay. He doesn't see her bush, but you're not that far off. I'm not that far off. Yeah, that's where all of that, like that's I again, the show is very funny. I think very funny.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Honestly, you know, I'd have to revisit it, but like I think Atlanta might be up there with one of the greatest shows of all time.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

It's hard to say because it's so new, but he I I would make an argument for it. It's there's a show I would put on there that I mean it's more of a comedy that we're not allowed to talk about, but I'm like, it should be up there. And it's a precursor to Atlanta, which is Louie. You don't get modern a lot of shit if Louis didn't do what he did the way he did.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

What was the show he did about the bar? Was that Horace and Pete? Horse and Pete. I thought there were parts of Horace and Pete that were incredible. Like staggering.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

There's parts that that it'll never get back.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

There's an episode of that show that is literally just somebody delivering a monologue to him.

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Lori Metcalf.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah, and that's it's an amazing episode.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

We'll do a season on it or something. Williams wants me to watch the whole thing. I've never watched the whole thing. No, you yeah, you yeah, why isn't that on the list? We gotta add that on.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

Because it's the saddest thing that's ever been made on. Yeah, it's rough.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

We watch sad shit.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

But no, yeah, I'm watching Mad Men right now, and every time something hits me, I'm just like, this is the best show ever. Yeah, it's a lot of those moments with Mad Men. Because this is the thing that's unique about this show. Again, it's kind of the idea of uh Breaking Bad was awesome. Those guys went and crystallized it in Better Call Soul. Sopranos was great, they crystallized this with Mad Men because that's all the Sopranos guys. Yeah, yeah. Is it's not the Don Draper show. No, there's like eight cast members that are giving A tier stuff. I mean, Kent Osgrove, Peggy, Joan, come on, Pete. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like Hell's Bell's trudy.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

These guys are like John Slattery, so good. I know. So good.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

There's so many moments where I'm like, holy shit, this is like the third or fourth tier guy in the scene, and what he's Harry Crane's like knocking out of the world.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

I think the really interesting thing about Mad Men to me is that like there's a point in the show where the show starts to feel like it's just kind of spinning its wheels and it's doing, but that's like an allegory for like what Don is going through in his own life, and that parallel. Like, I had the conversation with people at the time, they'd be like, I don't know, I'm just it's kind of boring. I'm like, I think that's the point. Like, I Don's just fine and he's going through his day-to-day life, and I think we're supposed to feel yeah, how mundane this is.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

He had a midlife crisis, and literally there's an episode where he's like narrating his journal, yeah, voiceover, and it's cheesy and it's corny. And then you watch it and you're like, oh, I think that's the fucking point. That this guy is kind of sort of soulless, yeah. And even when he writes in a journal, which me and Nick have talked about by himself, he's writing it as if these are ad hooks, like these are puns and like clever one-liners. He can't be an authentic, even in his own head, an authentic self. I was just like, nah, this show's so fucking good, dude. And it's also, yeah, very funny. Funny goes a long way. Sure. Yeah, it helps. It helps cut through uh watching this guy cheat so many times with the hottest women imaginable. I'm just at the part with the the teacher, and it fucks with me. Yeah, that's uh that's a fucking problem.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Speaking of great television shows, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

What have you been watching?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I've just been watching devs, which is actually the only TV show I have been watching.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Okay, so before we like actually get into it, I did want to ask you guys, what have you seen before? Because I was when I was watching it this time, I realized that Sabrina and I had watched maybe like three episodes when it came out and then never finished. I watched the whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:02

I was when this came out, I was so pumped. Yeah, this was a big thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Now this rewatch, are you what watching episode by episode? Yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So we gotta be careful with spoilers, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So that was a thing that I was curious about because, and just getting right into it, as I was watching it, so spoilers for those listening, I'm going to be doing the first and last episode of Dev. Yes. Because I was like, setup and payoff will be really great. As I was watching, so I just watched the whole show, and as I was re-watching the first episode to take notes, after I had agreed to do the first episode, I was like, this is going to be really, really hard. Because this might be one of the greatest pilots I've ever seen. Yeah. But only because I've now seen the whole show very recently and all these seeds that are being planted. Oh, yeah, which I can't specifically talk about because Well, and we can like we can mention seeds.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Sure. I because I yeah, I was taking notes too, and I'm like, oh, this is a seed, this is a seed, this is a seed.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Not a fan of the multiverse theory, guys.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

And I I I made that note, and it's like I wrote down in my phone in my notes app, I wrote down Chekhov's quantum theory.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Because like it's so interesting. And like, yeah, when we were talking about X Mockin and we talked about how confident Alex Garland is, the simple things that so many shows and so many pilots would rely on. He's just like, no, I'm just gonna drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. You're not gonna have any idea why that's important for eight more hours. Yep. You're gonna find out. Yeah, but I'm not telling you now. And I hope you keep watching.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

It's yeah, it's because Chekhov's quantum theory isn't a phrase. Like it's it's a fun one. It's a fun phrase. Yeah, watching this, I uh I was like, okay, we can we can talk about seeds and all this kind of shit and talk about how you know characters more no characters know more than they're letting on, which you can tell if even if you just watch this first episode. But still it goes pretty fucking crazy. But I was kind of also struck by coming in in chronological order, like how much of this is like the mechanical clarity of ex-machina mixed with the fun, fucked up stuff of Annihilation that doesn't make annihilation work as a movie, but he was able to pluck that out and implement it in this first episode. And I'm imagining continuing with these episodes. But I was like, this feels like a combination of those two. This feels like the evolution of ex machina and and annihilation to me.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

It feels way more like ex machina to me. Well, it but like I I totally see what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

In script implies in all the yeah, but well, I'm I think in craft too. The restraint, the confidence, this is but in weirdness in terms of

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Because this isn't just about consciousness where that's you know, that's you know, we're playing with even as simple as like choices in score, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

He's more comfortable to play with something that's jarring when you don't need it, and that is to set the ground of like we're gonna get weird. Yeah, yeah. And I want you to know that now because we talked about it. Because it's just a shot of Nick Offerman, but it's like Machina, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Like, what is the score? Yeah, and but you're like, Yeah, shit is going on. I think this shot isn't just telling us, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

I think it it almost feels like after ex machina and annihilation, he was like, Okay, ex machina worked. Annihilation, some of it worked. Yeah, he like learned, he like took stock and learned his lesson. Yeah, and like, yeah, there are I can I see what you're saying. Certainly in terms of like visual language, too. This is so much more ex machina. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah, I think so. You know, there's not a there's not as much, it's not nearly as tight in Annihilation. Uh he's he goes for some you know creative stuff for sure. He switches. That sounds condescending, but I didn't I don't mean it to be. I just think uh he's more tactful in his choices, more conscious in his choices in this and in ex Machina. But I'm glad that he brings in the weirdness of Annihilation because I don't because like I was saying on the Annihilation episode, I don't really like Annihilation.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

It's been a it's been a while since we recorded, and I'm the one that edits, so I listen back. So there are a few times where we talk about something and we didn't close the loop. And I gotta ask, when we discussed Annihilation and you're referencing that he's pulling from The Last of Us, is that a criticism?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

No, I just hadn't seen it before. Because in the moment, knowing what he likes now, knowing that he loves The Last of Us and knowing the timeline, I'm like, oh yeah, this makes so much fucking sense that it would bleed into his production design for Annihilation. I'm not saying that as a criticism as an option.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

And that's I was like, yeah, are you it is that a criticism?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Because I was also like I'm I'm just confused as to why you don't think The Last of Us is influential on the production design of Annihilation.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Only because just because he decided to make the movie in the woods, I don't connect The Last of Us is the woods, like the roads the woods. You know what I mean? Like there's plenty of movies, there's plenty of things that are in the woods.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

I think I think you need to you're just you're not you're not seeing as much of a direct influence.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

The aesthetics is not connected just because it's outdoors in my head. Sure. And when I watched Annihilation, all I was looking at was they're just outdoors. What else would it look like? The green vegetation is because it's like what? It's supposed to be Florida, like it's it's outdoors. That's not uh Last of Us at all.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Okay, William.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

Am I crazy? Yeah, you're it's outdoors.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

No, no, no. You're right. Let's just move on.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

No, that's so dismissive. Like, what part of the thing?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

I'm not gonna be able to convince you.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

No, I'm literally just talking about it's it's I think what you're saying is is fine. I mean, like, I I don't necessarily disagree. I think it's also very likely that like, even though you're not seeing the direct correlation, because in your mind they are very different settings, I think you also need to accept that like a lot of creative people take bits and pieces of influence from everything that they love.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

And this is why I said like the score. I didn't when I watched the movie, I didn't catch it. I realized the score, yeah, you're 100% right. That is it's it's not just that it's acoustic guitar, the melody's very similar. Like you can tell that's there.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I'll I get that the only thing I can tell you is to replay The Last of Us, and then you just like with the score, you'll be like, Oh yeah, I could see some of the productions. That's all I'm saying. And I'm not there's no way that it isn't influenced.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

And this is this is one of those uh this is one of those impasses where because we're not on the same page, you think I'm against you. I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying when I watched it, I didn't get it. That doesn't mean you're wrong. I'm saying But you're making me explain it again.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

You you didn't clock it, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

I guess I'm asking wrong if you could help me connect the dots. I can't be open.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

I can tell you and help you connect the dots more than I already have. And that's fine. This is all episode. But if you if you play the fucking video game and you listen to the fucking video game score, and then you watch Annihilation, you're like, oh, I he really liked this at this point. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. And I was right about you push back on the fucking score, and what did you do? You revisited it, and I was fucking right.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Yeah, this it's not points to.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Take my word for it on the fucking production design.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

I mean, like if it's easier to end where I just take your word instead of we we talk about it, and we can leave it as you're a bit.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Every time Zay's on, we get in some weird fucking argument about shit. I'm gonna end up getting pissed off.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

I'm just saying when I solidly meaning.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I got this, I got this, I got this. You didn't really clock the connection, yeah. Right? You're now admitting that like you re-listened to the score, and you did actually kind of clock that connection revisiting it, right? Yeah, it could be as simple as like, you know, like I said, he's picking and choosing, maybe picking and choosing the things that he's being influenced by. There's mushrooms growing out of people. Yeah. Annihilation. Boom. That's it. There's a there's an influential connection right there. Whether or not, I mean, I mean, I don't actually know this, but apparently Alex Garland was a friend of uh a fan of Last of Us. I I've seen evil. I've seen that show, right? Or I've seen some of it. There's mushrooms growing out of people. Yes, it's not hard to like make that connection.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

Yeah, and out that's it again, yeah. Everything you're saying is right. And outdoors. That is why I'm there on this side of the room, there is not an argument.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Right. But what are you asking for if it's more than that? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

That's why I'm curious. Why are you asking me to explain it again? Because I am only talking about the setting. Okay. So you here's okay, and if it helps you, I'll give you another example of where you're right. No, no, you're talking about. You said the score, you're talking about the setting, the backpacks, and when I when you said that during the episode, I was like, that's such a fascinating detail that I wouldn't have caught, but because you played the game so much, that aesthetics in there, and I was like, Yeah, that makes total sense. I'm not saying you're wrong and it's not.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

I get that one's a swamp and one is set in the west, but in terms of like set design of degraded buildings, and in terms of nature taking over the building. The mushrooms, the fucking spores, yeah, all that stuff is just in his head. I'm with you.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

It feels more out in the woods, but like there's buildings there, they get to the base. There's like all these Fort Amaya, which is the thing. Yeah, there's all these places that they're going to, right? And all of them have been taken over by nature in one way or another, except for the lighthouse, I guess. You know?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

And yeah. So that's what I'm talking about. I understand that the woods are different than a swamp. No, it's I understand that.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Yeah, I was just like, I I mean, it's yeah. We can definitely we can walk away from this because I don't get it. It's you don't get it because it's it's so dumb and so much more simple, and it's not a disagreement. Yeah. I'm just saying when I watch it, certain parts of the film stand out to me, I think, in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Where can I can I just interject a little bit and assess what's happening here?

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

In a way that is not at all related to autism.

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

We are now having a moment where like you feel like you need to keep explaining. Yeah. You don't need to keep explaining. I don't. We all know this, and like we get it, we get it, but like I can see it happening in you because I've seen it happen in so many people all the time, including myself.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Because no, like that, like you just he doesn't think we understand, so you have to keep explaining it over and over again.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, you feel like you're not being understood. We understand. I understand.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Because in my head, it is such a simple, like, no, totally concept.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I mean, we do understand. Yeah, and there's no amount of re-explaining on either side that's going to clear anything else up.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And uh the because we're all on the same page.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Hey, the condescension, it's noted. It's seen, it's registered, it's noted. We can move on. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

I don't want you upset.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Take my fucking word for it.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

And I understand the woods are different than the swamp. Yeah, I know you're not. We need Dave with a new third chair on the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 30:57

I don't know. Maybe we need you not here because this doesn't happen when you're not here.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Oh, wait, wait, hold on. Pull out a lot of arguments. This does happen when I'm not here. I have listened to like like we've established, I've listened to a lot of episodes.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

The hyperfixation, the rumination definitely happens when you're not here. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But no, it's, I mean, I this literally was for me to literally for me, not even for the podcast, is I was like, I never asked you in the moment. I was like, is The Last of Us a criticism? Because I think when we go forward with this show and everything else, is that a criticism on Alex of when you start seeing the influence of other things? That's interesting to me because I think it could be. You wouldn't be crazy if you said Annihilation's lower tier because you feel the inspirations more than the originality, because this is a guy to me, even in something as um overused as a zombie film, that feels so original. I now I think that's interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting point to get to, right? Because I was like, he's one of those guys where if you go, ah, I feel the inspiration, that is a knock. I don't or I could see it. You wouldn't be crazy if you said it. It doesn't apply every time, but because he's so original with concepts that people know, I get that.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I think at a higher level, I think it depends on if we're feeling like it's inspiration versus cribbing.

SPEAKER_04 32:27

Yeah, I don't know. But this is why I asked, and Nick already cleared it up as I don't think any of us view seeing the inspiration as a negative. I was just because I didn't ask then, I was like, it could be. That's not crazy.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I mean, I I don't I think it depends on the level, and I like I said, I think it depends on the level of derivation. If it starts to feel derivative of something else, then I think that could very well be a criticism. However, there is virtually nothing that is wholly original in any art.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah, and he doesn't crib in in terms of the way of ripping stuff off. No, I don't think so. And with the whole comparison of of with Annihilation, it's just like Annihilation never made sense to me until re-watching it this time, where I'm just like, oh, I know the time period that the filmmaker is living in, I know some of the media that he's consuming here, and I've read the book that he's adapting. And it makes total fucking sense that he read the book once, had an idea of self-destruction.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

He had the manuscript, exactly. But he hadn't even come out yet.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, he only read it once. He had it it makes sense to me as a creative person, going, Oh shit, this is a cool, really cool novel. I kind of want to go with this idea of self-destruction, and I'm in being influenced design-wise by this game that I really like. So that's all I meant by it. Is yeah, there's no negativity either way, but it's just like that's where his brain was at, and it just didn't all come together for me with that. That's all I meant by it.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

And I think when we do this with a filmography, take my fucking word for it. Wait, I'm just gonna. Sure, you've never been wrong about anything ever. Um when we see something in chronological, you see the patterns, you see, oh, this guy can't stop talking about this or thinking about this. This I think is an interesting thing that you spoke about. Uh both of you guys, is ex-Machina is confined and confident and takes its time and kind of sort of restrained. Annihilation's a lot messier. Sure. And when Nick even says it, like, we're trying not to say it in a negative, but like he takes chances and takes some swings that don't all the way work. There could be, because we're watching it in this order, this feel of quote unquote return to form. I'm gonna do like more tech-based sci-fi, which lines up with ex machina. It's less surreal, it's less action, it's back in the real world, so to say like there's certain parts we're going back to tech. I mean, we're in Silicon Valley type stuff. Like, you could see that as I went and did a weird thing, I'm coming back to my comfort zone. I don't think that's what happened in his head, but you can make the case that that is exactly what this feels like. This doesn't feel like the follow-up from the guy that did Annihilation. This a hundred percent feels like the TV show from the guy that did Ex Machina.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah, absolutely. But I think there is a little bit of a certainly a craft return to form, like we were talking about with the visual language and everything. I do think there are maybe some similar themes that he's touching on to ex Machina, but at the same time, it does feel like he's like, No, I really want to dig into this kind of thing, and I want to use this as a a vehicle for it. So while there's similar themes in terms of like identity and humanity a little bit, this more feels it feels bigger.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

It feels yeah, to me, it feels more yeah, it feels more adjacent to the weirdness of sunshine and the weirdness of annihilation, where you're bringing in these things outside of humanity. I mean, he's literally, you know, Nick Offerman's character, uh, you know, talks about the godless universe and all this kind of shit, and and and that'll come up, you know, later on in this show. But you know, the themes outside of humanity, shit that we can't comprehend. And clearly this uh show deals with the incomprehensible, and I mean, yeah, it's so hard not to spoil anything, but yeah, but like that's this still feels like the same guy to me. It feels like that ex machine at precision mixed with his bigger idea. Like a bigger swing of like you know, those those scary the sun is a god and we can't comprehend what aliens want, kind of shit. You know what I mean? Those those bigger things.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

But what's what's kind of funny and I think awesome is most of what you just said's not in the pilot, but you absolutely feel it's coming. Yes, there's not much in this pilot, but that gives me the feeling of this is going to be huge because you didn't do anything yet. And I know it's eight episodes, and I'm like, if you haven't blown your load yet with this, that means it's this is there's a lot coming. And like it feels, I think, with the music, with how they show Nick Offerman's character, the lead into the room, the the whole devs program concept of how they speak about it. I was like, all of this leads itself to like, oh shit, this is gonna be really, really weird in a big, big, big idea. And it's all in here by the lack of anything.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

That's exciting. The interesting thing is that the main plot point of this pilot of this episode, Sergei being a spy, yeah, really. That's the that's the plot point of this episode and the fallout around that. It doesn't matter, and like that's maybe a little bit of a spoiler for future episodes, but like all that is is the catalyst to get into the bigger story.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah, that's the inciting incident of the entire series.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Yeah, it's it's the inciting incident. It's almost a red herring, though.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Yeah, because it almost doesn't really need to happen for the story to happen, but that's the fun part of this is like whatever that room's doing, this guy put his life on the line to like steal. That's all that is to me. That's what that feels like in this episode. Because we don't because we don't even know what they're doing in countries need what's in that room. Yeah, we don't even know what they're doing. And I don't know, because he literally doesn't tell the character. He goes, I don't even need to tell you. You'll find out when you start working. And just to add the other layer of Sergei spent his whole life to get into that room and to record this. That's how big of a fucking deal that room is. Yeah. That I don't know what it is. Right. That's really exciting for a pilot to do.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

And again, not trying to spoil it, but talking about seeds, like there is a plot point much later on in the show that needs to exist for the story to end how it does.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

That only exists because of something that happens in the first episode.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's this is a very difficult show together. Yeah. Yeah, episode by episode.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

That's a thing where it's just like, it's just like, man, that you you planted a scene in episode one that literally doesn't pay off until one specific thing happens in episode eight.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Or no, actually, I it happens in episode seven, I think, technically.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

But even so, it's like, but that doesn't happen without that.

SPEAKER_04 39:56

And this comes from, I mean, we we talked about the Louis show written direct every episode written and directed by one guy, one mind, one vision. Yeah. This is because Alex Garland sat and said, This is my thing. There's not a writer's room, there's not a team of directors, there's not it, it's not, I have a nugget and I need a team. It's Alex Garland wrote an eight-hour thing of his own. Not a movie, because that's uh uh dismissive of this form, but like he knows everything he's doing and wants to do because it's just him doing it. Yeah, and that's where that heavy hands. Yeah, there's comes in.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Let's see if we can all figure out how to make this work.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

It's not based on a book, yeah. It's not pulling from somebody else's idea where he goes, Well, I like part of it. This is just his brain fully untethered, and he's gonna see it through for eight hours instead of two. Yeah, so you get those fun things of like, we don't have to follow up with this for seven more hours. You know what I mean? That's uh that's the other exciting thing to see him work in television is long form because you're the one that's read his prose or his shorts, some of it's novels, he's worked on video games. So, like, this guy's brain doesn't just work in a two-hour, three-ac structure, he can do other things, and this is him working in long form for the first time with us.

unknown 41:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

The thing that's really, really impressive about devs. Well, there's a lot of things impressive about devs, but I think one of the things that's really impressive, and you know, I can say this having just watched the whole thing, is that it's not a kind of sci-fi show that we ever get. Like maybe ever. And this is an Alex Garland thing very much, but his traditional approach to sci-fi where he's like, he's like, no, no, no, I have a a thing I'm trying to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

And the setting and everything, that's just the vehicle. But like, I don't really care about spaceships, I don't really care about lasers, I don't care about any of that. I have a thing that I need to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Yeah, it's classic science fiction in the way of you're exploring an idea.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

That's saying something about a humanity as opposed to like citizenship.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

To bring it back to what I talked about with Ex Machina and Alex Garland's obsession with control, yeah, Devs ultimately is entirely about how we don't have control.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

And trying to control things. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Exactly. And it's like the exactly what you were talking about before of like the thing of digging into these chronologic chronological filmographies is like, oh, they keep talking about this.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Yes, you know, and yeah, while we're on the subject of that, some of the things that we can talk about are some of those parallels, right? So we have, I would say, almost three uncharismatic main characters kind of in this, in this so far. And we're just introduced to him. We don't know necessarily the motivations, but you have Nick Offerman, who you could say is the analogue for Alex Garland himself. Josh Jenkins kind of talked about that, where it's like you have this person who's kind of quiet, unassuming, but very smart, that kind of thing. But he's, you know, offer and I think Offerman's great at dipping in from being charismatic and not charismatic, like just the way that he can deadpan fucking stare and you know that something is going on in his head.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

And also the way that when they're in the scene where Sergei's pitching their quantum tracking of the behavior of the neotode or whatever the fuck it is. Nematode. Nematode, thank you. He can actually click on and you're like, oh yeah, he could be like a tech bro. So he he's very good at that kind of code switching. And then you have Allison Pill's character who is with the same haircut. And she's just nothing, nothing going on, really. And you have uh Lily, the the main character, one of the main characters, who also is just like she's very passionate. She does show more emotion than I mean maybe closer to the uh psychol uh or sorry the biologist in Annihilation, you know, shows more emotion and stuff like that, but still pretty even keeled.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

I think the woman that plays Lily is really interesting because I think she is an excellent facial actor.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Like there are scenes where like well when her she sees the footage of Sergey, like it's just her small, but even the small things, like when she's talking to her ex-boyfriend Jamie, there's like moments where you can she's really conveying a lot of internal emotion and development with her face. But I I actually think she's not like a great at line reading. Yeah, yeah, I don't think her guts are so. I don't think her dialogue is delivered very well all through a lot of it, but because she's so good visually, I'm still kind of wrapped in. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Well, and I think that that, and we've talked about this before we got into this, but it's like, and we talked about this with even John Morgan uh a couple months back of like she is the obstacle of this show for me a million percent. Yeah, she I'm so curious to re-watch this, and I honestly want to watch something else that she's in. She's like in House of the Dragon or something like that. I was just looking up some of her credits. Oh, okay. I've never seen her in anything else besides this and ex Machina. And I think she pops up in a couple of his other movies in in smaller roles than these, but because I completely agree with you, her line reading's weird, but I'm like, but is it her voice? And she's not actually reading the lines wrong. Weird. Like, I I that's why I have to see her in something else that is.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

I was gonna say, for you, other than the race, is it the voice? Is it the line reading? I I and it's funny you say that again, minus the racing, because I don't bump against that the way you do, but the voice is something. There's something there with the voice, it's like and I know that's crazy coming from me because that's probably the closest someone's ever sounded like me. Is her. I think me and her have a very similar register, and that honestly might be why I hate it, and that might be why Nick hates it, because he's like, I can't do this. I can't watch a show with a person sounding like William and then talk about it with William about that voice.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Something to be said, not for it being your voice specifically, but there's something to be said for like sometimes we just have these like grating reactions to things that we don't necessarily like it could just be somebody's voice or something, but like you know, for some of us in the room or ethnicity for William, um gender, but you know, we we talked about her in Ex Machina, yeah, of like she doesn't say anything.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

No, she doesn't have anything.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

Well, there are parts in that movie where you're just looking at her and she is just conveying something internal, and in that movie it's all internal, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Because but she's making it work, and I think that's he you know you can just tell by his work he enjoys actors and that kind of internal work, or he enjoys actors who can pull that off really well.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Well, he is a guy that I think to his credit doesn't feel like he needs to explain things, yeah. And I think internal visual acting is a big part of that. Yeah, you know, absolutely because he doesn't want to spell things out.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

I mean it's it's part of being great at exposition because he knows when to say it, when to use it, when to not.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

And it's like, yeah, yeah, it's part of his skill set.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Absolutely, and I think yeah, picking people that can convey that and Nick Offerman's a great example, yes, you know, which this is his first collaboration with Nick Offerman, and he shows up in Civil War and William. I don't know if you saw this, maybe you did, but he's rumored to be cast in Elden Ring.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

I did not know that. I know Kaylee Spenny is who she's in this, but she doesn't talk yet.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yes, she hasn't she we only have a shot of her watching Sarah Gay, but while we're doing this, we have to talk about You're looking up how old she was when this was filmed by Stephen McKinley Henderson, the the big dude.

SPEAKER_04 48:16

Yes, who if this is his first one for me, too. This is everyone saw this, and of the entire cast and the entire show, they're like, that guy needs to be in everything.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

Yeah. When we talk about crazy, I know he's like probably in his 60s or so who's been. I mean, he'd he'd been in plenty of other things before this, but this feels like the one that set him off.

SPEAKER_04 48:38

Seems like a sure, like a late career resurgence kind of thing. Because he's in a bunch of his stuff, yeah. Yeah, because yeah, he he he was doing smaller roles here and there, here and there. But like, I I mean, am I crazy to say this is why he's in Dune? You know what I mean? Like I could see Denny look like this boosted him up, sure. And I I think it's a lot of it because he's not it doesn't count. We're we're jumping ahead because his stuff comes later. But like that might be the closest in this cast of a guy with charisma where like when he starts doing shit, you're just like he's got something I like.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Yeah, he can read dialogue in a way that pulls you in.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Yeah, yeah, he's excellent in this. I think the actor's name always escapes me, but the guy that plays Kenton, the secure head of security, yeah, yeah, is always really, really great. And also talk about like another just great character actor that like does great facial acting work. He's also, I think, just like a very accomplished actor, but like he's one of those guys that you're just like there's he's delivering something internal here.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Yeah, he's got body posture down, and again, we can talk about some of the cinematography and stuff. I I wanted to bring up that because we can talk about that, and and with the creativity, it's I mean, whatever, it's it's kind of filmmaking 101 stuff, I guess, but it still doesn't always happen, so that's why it's worth talking about. But with the security guard character, just him talking to Lily and being in shadow and being overblown by the background, and just like those little things where it's like, oh, this is a natural lighting scenario where you at this, oh yeah, if you're in a giant glass fucking Silicon Valley office, this would be what it looks like. This guy has this office. But guess what? It's also sinister as fuck.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Yeah. And can we just also can we you since just since you mentioned it, can we talk about how much Alex Garland fucking loves glass and loves reflection? Oh yeah, yeah. Like, oh yeah, there's so much, and in this episode specifically, where it's like, and that he sure that shares with ex Machina absolutely too, is like they're in basically a glass cube that they get to with a floating glass cube that they get to by walking through golden glass pillars for some reason.

SPEAKER_04 50:56

Yeah, what's his thing with glass? You think? Is it back to the the the the false sense of control? It's a barrier, but it's not type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Uh maybe, I don't know. I mean, like I've thought about that too, and it's like I think so much of it is like a lot of it, and certainly in ex machina is like you're dealing with how you're presenting yourself, yeah, and there's like a filter there.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

There's a lot of like reflections, and like in ex machina, I think generally when she's manipulating Caleb, we see her in reflection.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah, I just I also think there's probably just an element of him being like, This is gonna look fucking cool.

SPEAKER_04 51:32

Yeah, it's gotta be the it's it's the Michael Man of it of like I'm in doubt, make something I think that's what those golden pillars are.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah, it's just look it's a great well, because it made me immediately think of the crystal trees and annihilation where I'm like, that just looked cool. So he's like, Well, let's do something like that.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

Even when they get to the devs building and Nick Offerman is talking about the building, he's talking about the building, the Faraday shields and how it's built, and the layers are never he doesn't say that are he says something about lead or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

But I think he's talking about the inside of the street.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

He's talking about the building, and there's these gold pillars there that just look fucking cool and allow him to do all these interesting framing devices and everything, where like somebody is going to sit down and you see them in reflection, but you know, Allison Pill sits down, so you see her in reflection, but not Nick Offerman, and then you get interesting things where like she's on one side of him, but you see her arm come out from the other side of the screen and all this, and like you know, they leave the devs building at night, and instead of just the gold pillars, now there's also gold lights along the ground. Yes, and you're just like some of that is like I think he just thinks that looks fucking awesome. I think he just wants to play with that visually, and otherworldly shit.

SPEAKER_04 52:45

I was gonna say I think it's a lot of the otherworldly shit because I think it's the exact same thing with the lights on the trees that look like they disappear in portals because it's a light going down, so up top is still pitch black, so it's like as if they're disappearing.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

There's got in that fucking push in when Sergei which okay, if someone puts a plastic bag over your head, bite that motherfucker.

SPEAKER_04 53:07

I never ever think that. Every movie that's ever done the bag over the head, if it's not an industrial thick bag, it's the same because like my bananas have broken that bag. So like you can like suck it in and bite a hole. But but yes, but when it I just hold on, I you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

However, but he's probably paying. Let's all play spaceman. Yeah, have you I've never had a bag put over my head. I imagine there's quite a bit of panic that happens. Well, yeah, when you don't pay it yourself.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Yeah, but he's screaming, and you know, yeah. I I I get that, but still, take a bite. But that that pan up of uh from Sergei up to uh Forest and just the way that it reframes it to where he has the halo over him and all stuff, it's like calm the fuck up. That's such a great shot.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

I think, yeah, I think the some of it too, and I think that the um the light rings around the trees probably falls into the conceptual game of like, well, okay, if somebody in real life was going to build this crazy building and they had to light the way, would they just set up light posts? Probably not. They'd probably come up with some like crazy cool fucking way to do it.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

Because he's a fucking billionaire, he's gonna hire some artists, yeah. Yeah, it's it's an installation, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:27

Which a lot of colleges have stuff like that, which I like. Yeah, I also think visually it adds to the idea of this the devs building, the structure, not just what's inside, but the entire thing of it is the incomprehensible. This is the sun. Well, there's like we're saying there's like water on top or something. Yeah, like the gold pillars, it could be vents, it could be exhaust, it could be something functional, but he just wants to again, he's not telling us anything in this pilot. Yeah, he's setting up this is different. This is not otherworldly, but it is um it's a next level. These are all puzzles, these are all this is all the unknown, the force leading up to it's the unknown. I think the one thing that I'm not in love with, and I never was, and it's the the image, uh the big statue of the daughter, the the girl in the dress. I don't love it.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

I think the everything else works so much better. The weird thing about the statue is that that's an image that we see in another context. We see it as the original photo on the side of the shuttle box, and it looks fairly normal, like a kid just doing whatever she's doing. I don't even really know. It's a weird pose, but in the photo it looks okay. The statue looks freakish.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

Yeah, because it's creepy. I mean, it's rendered CGI, it's not a course, but it's also designed, it reminds me of the fucking big boy burger thing from like the from like that's all I think of.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

And that's why weird the face looks like grotesque almost like it's it's a it's a weird choice, yeah, you know. Yeah, and we were watching it, and Sabrina was like, why did they make the statue have the hands in that weird position? They could have made the statue be doing anything. Yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah, it's just and that's something that like I I don't I still don't know. It's just like a weird weird thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

But speaking of that, and the thing that just goes to show how simple my brain is. But when the show opens pushing in on Nick Offerman, and then it cuts to him implicitly looking at the screen, which is his daughter, which the company's named after, I was like, that's the entire show. In the first two shots.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

So in the last shot of the pilot is Nick Offerman looking out the window at the statue. Yep, exactly. After all of this stuff has happened, after he's literally had a person murdered, and yep, he is looking at his daughter, like you said, that's the show. And spoilers, we don't even know that yet.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

Exactly. But that's what makes it so fucking amazing. But like the first episode starts and ends with what exactly the show is about, and we don't even know it as an audience until you watch it. So that was like that that clarity. I love that kind of shit. And I still love that while he's interested in all these ideas and the tech bro San Francisco of it all is just a backdrop and it's a means to speak about this idea, right? Like if we want to talk about all the shit that the show is gonna get into, you need to have this as the setup, kind of basically, uh, in terms of the characters and and the the tech and the money and all this kind of stuff. But he doesn't let Silicon Valley off the hook in terms of like you have the intercutting between the homeless man, yeah, who may or may not come up later on in the show, and you have you know, all these these tech kids who live in a nice place who are getting on a nice shuttle bus, all this kind of stuff, and you intercut with the people who are homeless, and you you and the dankness of the city contrasted with the fucking idyllic, whatever bullshit that the the you know tech companies want you to believe exists. So like he's still not letting them off the hook, and he's showing the reality and the juxtaposition between the haves and the have nots, sure, even though that's gonna come back in a different way than you think. But I it's just it's just impressive in terms of those, he's still picking up those visual juxtapositions and not letting you know all the the glamour of of the Silicon Valley.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

It's not just like we are crazy, you know, utopian technical things. He's like, this is still the real world. Exactly. This is existing in our world, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Like, yeah, yeah, he's still grounding it with the reality of it.

SPEAKER_04 58:58

And I don't I only watched the show once when it first came out as it was coming out, so it's it's been six years now, so I don't remember all the details to it. 2020 was six years ago. I watched this, I guess now two weeks ago, because I thought we were gonna record sooner than we were. So I watched it, it's been a while. So last night, I just watched the first half. I had to get I needed to re-watch the beginning, and I had to watch him talk about uh determinism, and so I watched up to there. But the intro we'll get back to because I think because like we're saying, there's a reason why the film the show opens with this music, with these images that he wants to show us. It's not just Nick Offerman, it's not just Amaya, it's the city and in what way. And I I feel like it might play into the actual overall plot of what his character's gone through. And so there's a discussion being had with where I am and control. Okay, and so I I watched it again because I was like, if it is deliberate that we're opening with these images in the order and the timing that we see them, it's not just as simple as well it's San Francisco, he's not that guy, he's not bringing you that for no reason. Yeah, of course. We talked about it with ex machina, and and that's why we're saying it now for people listening to us, is because in ex machina, it is always so deliberate when he was cutting from the tech uh brutalist uh rooms into the nature, from the green to the mechanical, like all of that was on purpose and saying a lot, and so I was like, I think there's another piece of this that he is saying on top of the tech mentality of what's happened to San Francisco because of how much money came and where it went, which is not in the city, yeah, yeah. The the money didn't go to them, and that's why there's a homeless dude in like three different shots. Sure. Yeah, I yeah, I think that's fair. Because again, yeah, I I think that idea of control is huge right now, and uh we'll we'll keep talking about it, but like that determinism thing is hard for me. We've we've referenced it, me and Nick and Josh Jenkins has talked about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Yeah, I was like, Oh, did Josh Jenkins just watch this and then adopt that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

I was like, is that where we pulled it from? We also talked about it on my episode. Yeah, it keeps coming up because Alex keeps talking about it, but this is the one where it feels like this is what he's talking about, and I think it's it's so telling where my brain goes with these things is it's either free will or God. Those were mine, and this is it's either free will or uh the the laws of nature, and that is cause and effect, and that's what this is is everything's on a tram. We're on wheels, you just don't notice it. Yeah, so there is no free will, everything's been predisposed through cause and effect from the start to where you are now. That's what I have all I always struggle with anything that you don't say my life is my doing because uh I I I'm mad at whoever's doing it then. I can make more sense of you saying, Well, it's it's just you and it's kind of chaotic and it is what it is. But when you start telling me, whether it be Christians saying, Well, no, God has a plan for you, I'm like, I need to talk to this guy then because I don't have some choice words, and it's the same as if you tell me I don't have free will, everything's cause and effect. I'm like, I need to speak to the manager here. This is bugging me. And so when he has that speech, I had to go back to it because there is it's a fascinating concept, yeah, I think, for the science tech guy to do the natural laws and just this the the idea of before you kill a guy telling him this is forgiveness. I forgive you, you didn't betray me. That's that's some cold-blooded shit that only a soulless tech billionaire can pull off. Where he's like, saying about you, man. You didn't even choose any of the things you did.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Yeah, you don't matter, you're just yeah, you're one cog. And you know, we can talk about this on episode eight, but I think Alex has some interesting things to say about that because he's not and uh well, okay. So I I think that to his credit, this is something a lot of people don't do, is like he wants to talk about these things, he wants to have this as a discussion. He's not saying like this is what I believe. It's not like Guillermo, where like Guillermo is like monsters need love, and if you love monsters, they will be, you know, it's like he has a thing where he's like, This is what I believe. Yeah, Alex is like, let's talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

Yeah, this fascinates him.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

He's interested in this. Let's process this together. Yeah, yeah. I have thoughts about this, but like you're also allowed to have thoughts about this, and maybe I'm gonna bring up all these thoughts through all these different characters, yeah. And that happens throughout this whole show, you know, in a variety of different ways, but it's like it's more of a conversation, it's more of a contemplation. It's more of him. He has ideas, but he's not trying to say like I think this is the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

Yeah, he doesn't necessarily know the answers. Yeah, he has ideas about them, but it's about the explanation, he just wants to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:38

And there's uh there's something that I think I think I I I feel like Kubrick did it, but there's a lot of times this is the thing that's lost with sci-fi that I experience because I'm sure it exists. But the idea of using technology to do that, to explain or understand everything, yeah, like the world or the unknowable uh to use technology for that, as opposed to saying I have the answer and I proved it with tech. This is more of I I want to get there. Yeah, not I'm there, I want to get there. That's uh that's lovely to me. It's interesting that's always in my head that is I I love it, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

I think it's interesting you bring up Kubrick because something you were talking about, the shots of Kenton in front of the window, that's a very Kubrick thing, too. And like I clocked that right away when it came up this time where I was just like, oh, and that's I mean, I don't even remember if we talked about it. I'm pretty sure you guys talked about Kubrick's influence on him in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

I don't remember if we talked about during Xboxing now, but like yeah, because that's single point exactly, and it's like perspective, you know, very single point perspective, very symmetrical.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

Like, and I thought that was really interesting to almost like just kind.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:00

like give that nod also non-charisma yeah yeah talk about the crew on 2001 like I can't even name the the character Dave yeah Dave my mind is slipping I can feel it I'm sorry Dave that's good mind is slipping and double that's what Hal says yeah yeah I'm I'm okay at this sometimes I know what I'm doing um show me how yeah I think I think this is a really really like I said I think this is a really excellent pilot yeah for reasons that we can't even talk about yet yeah exactly but but what we can what we can talk about is what hit me with it is for a pilot it feels like so little is being said that I know is leading to something big because like you like we were talking about the biggest thing that happens is Sergei's a spy and is murdered and they cover up the murder that is not what I'm thinking about when I watch this show that is not what I'm thinking about when we are in this pilot I am at the dev's building what the fuck is on his computer what's the machine what's the gold stuff why are the lights like this like I'm thinking of so much of the things that I know are not explained that it yeah the the whole he's a spy I'm just like yeah so what? Get to the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

I also so interesting way that it's interesting you say the get to the stuff thing because one thing I noticed in a weird way for as little as we get before we're even halfway into this pilot we have the establishment of the entire show. Yeah and we get the characters and all the characters all the backgrounds all the settings all the motivations within 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:54

And I I so much of this show does feel like annihilation was such a weird experiment for him because we we're already talking about like camera choices with meaning and decisions that are saying something without and a lot of that I don't feel like is in annihilation but the other thing is like it's also not a bad idea to have a super in your head high level high concept trippy sci-fi show but give a very easy pulpy through line of there's a spy and we kill them and we're covering it up yeah and the girlfriend's trying to find it out because that's something that Annihilation didn't have X Machina has it is this is not about the Turing test but that's enough to get me through every scene I need yeah there's that through line that I can follow this has that we're gonna go into crazy directions but the show is a girl is like I don't know if my boyfriend killed himself something's up and she doesn't know he's a spy so there's enough there that we can follow for eight episodes while doing everything else it it that's a really good idea to to to layer those together and it not just be trippy. It's it's because we'll walk away it's almost like this guy knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

It's kind of like he's really good at yeah it's kind of like he's a really good writer and director but he's doing he's telling us a story in a way that he hasn't before in terms of not only is it long form not only is it television but he puts the audience member in the middle of the characters in terms of how much we know. So we know more than Lily because we know that Sergei was a spy and that Sergei was murdered.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:41

With his James Bond watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

But we don't know what Forrest and Allison Pill's character know. We don't know their motivations outside of oh it's a spy who's gonna steal my code yeah but what the fuck is all this stuff that he's talking about determinism we don't know. Yeah so we are literally as an audience member we are stuck in the middle and here's we don't we we don't know what's on the computer.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:00

Correct we still don't know what the building's for we don't know what the devs program is we know it's a building and we know it's not Cold Fusion exactly and we know it's not quantum cell phones. Here's here's the thing that just in the pilot a thought that hit my head is like did they know he's a spy and purposely let him in did that really slip by them like honestly in the pilot alone that was a thought I had is what that's that's what about that yeah that's not made clear yeah that's not really ever made clear yeah right it's like I don't know I think it is in the pilot? Not in the pilot that's what and so I'm sticking with the pilot when I watched this episode I think it's made clear well I don't know you've watched in my head it was made clear but I don't know we're gonna watch the rest of it they set up the we are concerned and then they set up the obviously we saw what you were doing and they caught them the immediately there was something in my head of like you don't have whatever your devs program is for this long and it never got out for this to be the one time it gets out it felt like I was like I wonder if they knew and I and that was in my head of like I don't know why I think the show will talk about it eventually but for the pilot I was like did he really pull one on you or did you know this whole time I did and that was that was a thought I had in my head.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Well and you know there are things implicit in the dialogue again planting seeds about stuff of I mean we can't really talk about yeah but I think that is a question that you're supposed to be asking and I from what I remember I thought it gets answered. But it's effective it's an effective there's enough threads where simple pulpy way in to pull you in and ready for two. And we've talked about this too of like him predicting stuff you know decently in terms of his brain is always five years ahead of what's pop culture is going and like them reconstructing this fake footage and all the shit's like oh that's just Sora that's that's AI video that's all this kind of shit which I mean luckily got shot down but still it's like yeah but only this year did that shit really become as good as it was and he made this not even six years ago seven years ago because this came out in 2020. Yeah I mean but I know that I doctoring videos yeah I was gonna say but this is purely generative like it's literally the guy is walking it's literally here like Nick I don't want I don't want to be an asshole and rehash stuff previous and question your uh your competence ever again but I did see forruscump meet Kennedy so wasn't it Nixon?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:36

Oh yeah it was Nixon sorry oh I think it's both does he meet Kennedy I think he does I think he meets I thought he meant Kennedy he tells Nixon he's gonna go to the bathroom no that's Lyndon B. Johnson B.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

Johnson I don't know my president's yeah he tells Johnson he's got to go I don't know doesn't matter he meets them all I think he meets he meets them all I think he does for different things we'll find out because he's a war hero and so that's either Kennedy or Johnson because Johnson took over with I think it's Johnson he tells him he's gonna use and then I think it's when he's like on the Olympic team that he meets Nixon or whatever for the fucking ping pong.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

But that's why he doesn't meet Kennedy because the first time he meets the president I picked the wrong child from my joke.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:17

Pretty sure he meets Johnson now who's autistic you fucking assholes. Yeah now who's fixated because he drinks too many of the free Cokes we'll have to pee.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:25

We'll we'll find out season 12 when we do Robert Sonic it's gonna be a rough one have fun with Polar Express boys.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

I mean we'll have fun with fucking Back to the future I always forget that those are the same you for you forget the dude did really good stuff at a point Castaway I mean comment Castaway's so fucking good it's a fun one. Nate do you have some random stuff you want to hit?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Yeah yeah anything else you guys haven't I I got random stuff let's do it um first of all I you know shout out Jeff Barrow from Port is head doing the score yeah excellent work that little like weird like whistle thing that is the recurring motif so good creepy sets the stage immediately oh yeah weirdly I had this weird association that the title sequence reminded me of Fight Club because yeah it was like well it's that but also in Fight Club very specifically and I remember them talking about this on the commentary track they had the names kind of like in and out they had the and they actually had to like fight with the screen actors guild about it or something because there's like some stipulation where actors' names need to be on screen for a certain amount of time and Fincher was like no we're just gonna fade it in and out and like they did that with the devs sequence and I was like oh it's he's doing the fight club thing it's like nice whether or not that's an influence I don't know but I did make the association yeah at least let's see what else oh one specific thing that I really wanted to talk about because I really liked this. I don't know why but I have this thing where I really really like when actors that are in a movie or a TV need to act. So like there's the scene where Nick Offerman walks in when Lily is talking to Kenton and he has to pretend like he doesn't know what's going on. And he's like he was like somebody disappeared yeah yeah yeah and I like I think he does such a good job of convincingly playing somebody that's not convincingly lying.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

Yes like there's just he's like so good at acting like he's acting yeah he's I I just I loved that scene acting badly yeah I but believable enough no exactly he's believably acting badly it's a lot that means many great actors and that's exactly yeah I just saw last week I saw sentimental value I think it's Danish or whatever the fuck and uh L Fanning it plays like a pop star who's gonna star in Stellan Starsgaard's like movie that he's uh writing about his life and his relationships with his daughters but like she's a pop star who's not she's getting into acting and she's not supposed to be the best actress but she's still pretty good but like there's a rehearsal scene where she's playing like she's in a rehearsal and she doesn't quite have the grip on the material yet and it's so fucking good.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:27

I'm like it's that yeah that actors that can act like they're acting yeah it's crazy that is cool. Yeah I always like that one little great bit of visual storytelling I really really liked was when Sergei's at his computer and Katie Allison Pill walks over and starts talking to him there's two bits of that that I really enjoy. One is visual storytelling one's not one is the line where Sergei says if this is true this changes everything and she says actually if it's true it changes nothing and that's the point. I thought that was great. Yeah but the visual storytelling language in that scene she is towering over him and so there's the back and forth of that that power dynamic but she's also making the acting choice of she's not tilting her head down to look at him. She's keeping her head almost entirely straight and looking like literally looking down her nose at him. Yeah yeah yeah and I was just like oh that's like really good because she's just like I'm better than you like I know I'm better than you it's great that you're here but like because she knows he's a spy and they're gonna put a bag on his head maybe maybe but also also you know she just and that plays out later in the show too which like no spoilers her whole character but like her whole thing is like she knows she is smarter than everyone. Yeah and Nick Offerman even says it to her at one point where he's just like you're not only smarter than me but you're wiser too it's like she's so believably conveys that and just that small choice yeah just she is looking down her nose at yeah that's great. And I was like oh that's like I was like that's such a good character choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

Yeah I love that. And I I also like when Sergei is reading the code for a while we have the kind of slow push in of him kind of realizing what it is and then he gets sick and he goes to the toilet and you I love just the switch of like you think it's because he's discovered something so fucking profound that it's just destroying his life and then we have the fun reveal of oh he's just we have that great like screaming behind glass thing you know where I'm just like oh man and that yeah that profile shot of him at the sink and it's literally bisected and it looks like it could be a mirror but he's not on the other side.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:51

It's just the sink yeah it's I like the uh motherfucker loves glass yeah better than he's using it better than M. Night Shyamalan did in uh because you were on that episode Dave I like oh yeah I did do glass that's right yeah yeah because it's glass I did glass and trap yeah yeah yeah the uh the music when they show the weird computer mechanical thing to me the chanting's very religious oh yeah that is very religious that's what I'm saying that's where uh I chub up and I'm like yeah yeah that's interesting because well we'll talk about it later again if you if if if Nick's saying the intro it's like that's the whole show that's the whole show we'll we'll talk about something there we'll talk about it later there's I and I no no I'm with you I'm with you talk about I'm starting to feel like I need to like make some notes a hard stop of like I just need to make some notes for next time yeah just to remember these specific or we'll just listen to this before yeah just hold off or listen to it before yeah I can't do that I have too much ego no yeah that's fair one criticism of like every once in a while he dips into like like the the we we kind of talked about it with Annihilation is like some of the exposition just felt clunky uh which is uncommon for him.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:16

Yeah Lily being surprised by Sergei's phone about to be wiped after punching in a passcode like the way that she's so taken about surprise yeah I'm like I'm like you're a fucking I had a similar thought she says out loud like or something like that. Password protected yeah I'm like dude you don't need this like just do the visual storytelling because I think he does get like the actors are too attractive to make the behavior match up but when they're like slinging whatever that is prime numbers at each other whatever the fuck it is I don't know what it is because I'm an idiot. But yeah I don't think it's prime numbers I was I was curious not to actually that's my problem I meant to look it up I was like what the fuck game is this and I got mad that they're smarter than they're just I think they're doubling the number they're like doing those uh they're squaring exponent I think they're squaring it yeah but the actors are too attractive for me to buy it but I think that behavior I'm like okay I could see that so funny I just got what you said that's hilarious no but I'm like these they're too hot I mean she whatever Lily the ladies she's like a model ballerina that's literally what she the world she comes from and the other actress it's like yeah you're fucking hot so it's like that that's juxtaposition doesn't work for me I don't buy it but I buy the behavior it's just like a weird combination where I'm like you need ugly be hot or smart one or the other no no no it's just so what you're saying is you find Sergey less attractive because you believe that he would get to go to devs if she was absolutely well also because he's a guy we're talking about hot girls because that scene with the number thing it's too attractive women and I think the acting is good. Like they feel Lily feels she feels bumbly kind of like a like a nerdy but I work in IT I can say these things these are my peers right so I it's not really but you know what I mean like and and the same with her friend who's next to her who prompts her with the numbers like the dialogue works but there's some kind of juxtaposition between just like their actors and they're very good looking and it just didn't fit I get it.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:21

It's a funny thing to say but I I do get it because I um I felt the same that was very generous. But it's a funny thing to say it is funny that you are just admitting something like that because I mean it it is true but I felt it with the third person in the room when she was like oh here we go I was like don't do that. What are you doing? Like no I also I didn't love her and the ex's dialogue that was one of those where I was like yeah this is written and I think that falls back into I don't know if they it's the I don't know if you can say this stuff and make it natural some people when they work with certain dialogue they can't sell it. Sure. We talk about that with a lot of actors of like oh you can sell you know uh certain people sold M night shy on dialogue some people can't yeah yeah yeah and that uh that dinner scene I was like it just it's a scene I'm watching a scene well that so that's I'm with you there and I think part of that is kind of what I was saying in that like I think the visual acting between the two of them is really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:33

I think he's believably like pretty unhappy to be there. I think I think she is conveying like a need from him and the desperation she feels yeah very embarrassed. However there is a lot of dialogue there's more dialogue in that scene than she really has to deliver in just about any other scene and I don't I just don't that was literally the scene that I made the note of like I don't she doesn't deliver line reading that's what it feels like.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

Especially compared to the guy who feels more natural. Yeah and he's delivering it very well also doing very good I will say though that like the introduction of him I think you know the fact that she says his name and he just goes like oh no yeah I thought that was funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:17

I was just like oh like yeah you know again it's almost like Alex Scarland is really good at this. But then I don't need you to sit down and go now let me tell you the history as much not my favorite fair but I do think that that's valuable because it's giving context for why he's reacting the way he's it's more and he is getting more than just we broke up. Yeah yeah it is more than that which is important he's not just like you dumped me he's like he's like he's like I need you to really think about like why what you're asking me is fucked up because of what happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

Yeah Alex Garland properly motivates motivates it where this guy is trying to get it off of his chest.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

He's not doing it in an expositional way he's doing it in like no no no let me get this well he's he's he's trying to get it off his chest but he's also trying to get her to take accountability sure yeah yeah which is like a very like real relationship thing of just like I mean how many times have we all pointed out to a partner like you did this thing that like kind of fucked me up I have no idea what you're talking about right we've done it with exes we've done it with partners like we all have right partners podcast partners too soon Dave you're breaking but he no but he needed Dave a cut it out they don't know what you're talking about he needed to he needed to be like no no no I need you to remember what happened yeah yeah yeah no I to know how fuffed up this is asking something from me that might be that honestly might be part of why she bugs me for the rest of the show because it feels like she goes yeah yeah yeah yeah but and I'm like god damn it see I I kind of feel a different way because I don't feel like she's being dismissive I like I said I because I'm I'm really buying into her facial acting so I kind of feel the desperation and I feel the guilt and she's just like she's like look I I know I fucked up but like I just I don't know what else to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:16

I'll give her the I'll legitimately give her another chance I came into watching episode one already not liking her because I didn't like her the first watch. Sure I'll I'll legitimately try and see if I can yeah I'm I'm looking her up on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:29

I gotta see her and other stuff honestly I gotta see if it's a voice honestly I think yeah I think I think I nailed it if you watched it if you watched it's just like someone really annoying that I know but I can't explain if you could somehow watch it with just the music and subtitles but no actual spoken dialogue that would be sick.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:49

That's an interesting idea yeah I like if only a director does stuff like that. Dialogless scenes interesting who knows this show's good man it is I'm excited the pilot's good episode one good who knows for the next seven yeah I do spoilerly I remember it kidding kind of rocky to be honest. So and I don't know if that's but I don't know if that's bumping up against her or or just it got too heady or something I don't know I was gonna say also for the for the listeners um me and Nick both watched it the exact same time I don't know how you feel about the show overall as a whole I know me and you liked certain things there's like three things that me and you were both like that's the coolest thing ever. Yeah. And I think in general because it's Alex Garland we enjoyed it I don't know how you feel I can say right now I don't remember you gushing about this saying this is top Alex Garland. So like yeah we're not coming into this already going this is some of his best work.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:49

This is we'll talk about that with episode eight when Dave comes again we can talk about our initial reactions.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:55

We'll find it out because I don't know for us and other

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

I'll admit to some part in this. I was really excited about Alex Garland doing TV. However, Sabrina and I have this thing where like episodic TV, more often than not, we forget about it. And we'll miss a week and then just forget.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:18

And it's really hard for us to like keep up on stuff. So that I think that's kind of part of what happened. But also to give a little bit of context, and I don't think this necessarily matters because the show was made before this, but like the first episode of the show aired March 5th, 2020. Yeah. COVID. Ten days later we got locked down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:38

And I think, like I said, we watched three episodes, I think, and then stopped. And I think it was a combination of both. So it's like I didn't have an opinion of it going into it before last week. Because I was just, I just didn't. I I I told you guys over text message, like I didn't remember any of it. Yeah. And like as we were watching it, I started remembering some of it. But like I didn't have the like, oh, this is one of Alex's greatest works, or yes, this reminds me a lot of X. Like, I didn't have any baggage going into it this time. Do you guys have any other random stuff? I do not.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:14

No, all of mine are just quotes, uh Cold Fusion, alchemy, things like that, where I'm just like, this is fun dialogue. This is fun, cool stuff. Shout out, lead Faraday Shields, and um Cold Fusion.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:30

Yeah, there's a lot, and it will continue through the show, but there is a lot of very confident writing, yeah, where concepts are dropped, terms, names, whatever are dropped, and some stuff gets explained, some stuff doesn't, and he's just like, You're just along for the ride.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:47

Well, because it's realistic in terms of you're not gonna explain everything. That's not how actual people talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:54

Right. Well, that's that's kind of the thing, too, is like it feels like when you're watching two smart people on screen have a conversation where they both know what's being talked about. Yeah, it's just like watching those two people having a conversation in real life where like, yeah, if you're lucky, one of those people might be like, Oh, by the way, this this is what we're talking about. Yeah, but for the most part, you could just watch two people talk and they're not going to stop and explain concepts. They're not gonna the they're just gonna they're just gonna drop these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:23

Yeah, because they're working from common language conversations. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:26

Yeah, the whole the whole nematode uh sequence, it felt like the the perfect amount of I'm following enough, but you're way smarter than me, and this is written where that's I think how that room would be talking in explaining it. It's the perfect blend of you dumbed down the parts you need to for the the dumb audience of me to follow along, and then I kept listening to them talk of like you're so fucking smart. You guys are so fucking smart.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:57

Speaking of that scene, what do you guys think of the Nick Offerman like just like eating spinach? Eating spinach with his hands.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:05

It pissed me off so much. I would be so I that to me is a pompous, pretentious move to do in a meeting where you go, I don't it it's the fuck you flip-flops thing. That's such a pretentious move. I wouldn't have respect for someone doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:23

But like what did you think about its inclusion? Because for me, that moment in a weird way felt a little more ham-fisted. It didn't feel as like genuine to me because we don't really see him exhibit any of that other kind of behavior. It's just it could be purposely off-putting.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:42

Maybe. Yeah, he could be trying to intervene in many ways, but I think it's supportive put the Sergey off his game. Exactly. That's what I'm thinking. That's what I meant by off-putting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it could be that performative, but it's also, yeah, I think it might be performative uh if he has any semblance of self-awareness, but also it's that this is what a Silicon Valley CEO would do. It's because it's psychotic, no one would do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:08

We get that you're fucking busy, you can eat your salad after I bet so much money that it's only there because Alex has met someone that did that. Maybe probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:18

So, second question about that scene before Forrest and Katie walk into the room, there's a quick shot of them standing outside and just looking at them. Yeah, yeah. Through glass. Do we through glass? Do we think they intentionally made them wait 45 minutes or something and then came in and were just like, Yeah, we're gonna fuck with these guys? Probably. Or do we think they were actually legitimately busy and were just kind of like taking a stop? Because I can kind of see it both ways. I don't think they were busy, but like there was that there's that quick shot where they are just watching them in the room before they walk in. I don't know. I don't think they were busy. I think I think it's fucking they also wanna the same as the spinach, they're just like trying to put them off their game.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:02

I think so. I think it's also you want to see them setting up, you want to see the whole thing. Because again, we already referenced this, and it's uh it's uh it's a thing we'll get to later. He lies to them in the whole thing, like he has certain dialogue where he's like, I don't believe that. Go with your f go with the former, like they're already setting up like this whole thing is performative, I think. Oh, yeah, it all is, and it's even before the thing he was gonna join devs, is how I felt.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:29

Yeah, and his interaction with Sergey at devs of being like, take your time, don't worry about it, you're gonna figure out. I know you will. Like, there is so much fucking knowing dialogue that comes from.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:42

I took your time, you got 15 minutes, and you're gonna show me something cool. It's it's because they already knew. Yeah, yeah. That's how I took it, which all of that I love. Yeah, that is good writing.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:57

It's almost like this guy knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:59

Well, I was gonna say this in uh when we get back to movies, we gotta really figure this out. Is like, is he just a good conceptual and dialogue writer and maybe not a great set piece writer? Because I think that's annihilation feels like him trying his best at like set pieces.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:18

Well, yeah, but the the set pieces at work are really good in that. So, yeah, my whole theory is one.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:24

I think it's really interesting because like I mean, you know, just like what we're talking about here is like he's writing these things, and even that it gives us something to talk about because even just that simple thing where another writer like would have a scene outside the room where Forrest and Katie are talking, and they'll be like, Do you think they know we purposely made them wait or whatever? Like exactly somebody else would hand hold a lot more, yeah. But he's giving us just enough that like we get to think about it and we get to try and figure it out, and you know, we get to kind of experience it in the same way.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:56

The Tarantino, like, now we got time, let's hang back and talk about feet. Yeah, right, yeah. That is the the way most people would write though. Yeah, yeah. Talk about feet.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:07

Talk about feet. Yeah, as we've already talked about, Dave, we'll be back for the finale of devs, and we're gonna have Josh Jenkins come in for a couple episodes here in the middle. I think it was maybe three and five. I can't remember what what he discussed. I thought he said seven. It might have been, I don't know. I don't remember. He's in for two. Unreliable narrative.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:28

Oh, he's in for two? I think so.

unknown 1:35:29

God damn it.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:30

I thought he was in for one. I was hoping I was gonna get the number on him. Does he know? Does he know I have this beef with him?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:36

If he listened, we kept it in the episode that he said that. Yeah, so we'll we'll see what his rebuttal is when he I mean, hell, we told John to come back.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:43

He does listen, though. Josh does. Josh listens. John doesn't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:47

When we have a skip week, 7 a.m. Jenkins is like, where's the episode?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:53

Yeah, hey, did William fuck up and not upload it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:56

Yeah, yeah. Jenkins is is number one listener uh in terms of earliest possibly.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:02

Yeah, well, so just like I said last time, you guys gotta just pick something that I'm really interested in that Josh Jenkins isn't, when or just you know, have me come on for therapy episode. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:17

When we need a mediator, or once we do uh Hums discography. We'll have you come back. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:30

Yeah, that felt good. Thank you. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:34

I don't know, I've never heard hum ever. I just know that it's a band that you like. Oh, yeah. So I'm just like, all right, I'm gonna go through it. Yeah, uh but uh yes, thank you for joining us, and and I'm stoked to have you back for the finale, and we can actually talk about this in entire series.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:49

Yeah, no, honestly. I mean, look, I'm looking at the time. We still made it two hours for a pilot episode of a show that we couldn't really talk about. Exactly. Yeah, no, great. There were some diversions in there. It all got cut out. This is an hour.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:02

I'm sorry I yelled at you earlier. Are you? I feel bad. At least I apologize to where your parents didn't, right? For what they did to you. So I life changing. I'm sorry. Keep that.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:12

Yeah, look, changes worlds. Yeah, it's a big deal. Look, I I've known both you guys for a long time now. Yeah, I've seen a lot of your interactions. Nick always feels bad. Yeah, you just can't stop. Yeah, I can't stop myself, but he does feel bad after the fact. It just takes him a little while. He's gotta get it, he's gotta get the rage out. That's and then he'll be like, I that's because we I'm Kevin Hart.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:37

I don't understand what you're saying, so I'm gonna take it as disrespect.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:40

And that's where like you were making the spectrum joke at my way because I was the one being fixated. I was like, that wasn't a joke. Both and yeah, thank you. Yeah, Bill scene, but we were both fixated where Nick is like, this is a right or wrong, and I'm right. And my brain was like, it's not a right or wrong. I I'll just say I'm being dumb. This is a thought I had, yeah, and I want to talk about a thought. And Nick's like, it's not a thought. I told you the truth. Yeah, you're disagreeing, and we were both at different conversations, but fixated on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:15

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:16

And we were just like, What the f like we're both trying to walk out the door at the same time, and neither of us are budging of like how the fuck we get through the and Dave did Dave navigated it swimmingly. To call me autistic and say, drop it. Nick's not backing down. Get the fuck out of here. Pull the ripcord.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:34

I was when I was out in California in January, I was having a conversation with two people that I consider to be like absolutely brilliant pedal designers. They are like superb intellects, like also just genuinely great people, like people I really, really like, but also just like probably geniuses. And I was standing there while they were having a conversation about fountain pens and ink, and I chimed in a little bit because while I don't love fountain pens, I have a a lot of pen experience in my life. And you know, the conversation is going and still going about fountain pens. And at a certain point, I was like, hey guys, just by the way, none of us are autistic.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:17

Oh yeah. Three metal designers at an industry event in California, essentially on vacation, talking about fountain pens. Oh, yes. Yep, yeah, yeah. That's yeah, totally tracks, definitely neurotypical.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:32

Yeah, I was gonna say fully neurotypical.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:34

You've been around it enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:35

Oh, yeah, you can see a good understanding. Yeah, yeah, my whole life, William. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, game recognizes game. Yeah. Uh we're working on it. But yeah, we'll be back next week with episode two. I think it's just gonna be me and William. I don't think it's gonna be Josh Jenkins. But if it is, you're welcome, and it's a surprise, and I hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:56

Yeah, you get to hear us talk about music Nick didn't listen to and what makes me sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

Did you guys listen to the new Robin record? I didn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:04

I might have a Instagram story about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:07

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I've been listening to it a bunch of time. There's been a lot of interesting music. Neurosis just put out a surprise new record. I saw that also from US. That was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:17

The Strokes announced a new record coming out in August. Super stoked.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:20

It's big for you, guys. Did you hear the new song? Nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:23

Because it's only nine songs, so I'm not gonna listen to any of them before the record comes out. Oh, okay. Yeah, because I'll burn out on it. But yes, we'll talk music next time. I'm still listening to Bad Bunny. Yes. Thank you, Dave. And uh yeah, we'll be back to talk more devs next week. Thanks, guys. Love you guys, love you too. Love you.