I'm Your Buddy
A film and TV podcast hosted by best friends, Nick and William. Join us weekly as we watch imperfect but excellent works and discuss storytelling, friendship, and, in our current season, the film and tv scripts of Alex Garland!
I'm Your Buddy
Episode 213: It Will Be In All Of Us
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This week, we watch Alex Garland's sixth feature film script Annihilation (2018) and discuss novel adaptations, first act problems, and the bear.
Hello and welcome to season 10 of I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, the podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer director Alex Garland. I'm Nick who loves Alex Garland.
SPEAKER_03And I'm William who also loves Alex Garland. And today we're going to talk about 2018 Annihilation written and directed by Alex Garland.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Second directorial official credit.
SPEAKER_03I almost referenced uh him as an auteur and then doing some research and listening to interviews. He hates the autor theory. The autor theory, and he hates being called that. And I was like, yeah, me too, totally. Like, yeah. Whatever you think, I think. So obviously that's lame. Who likes that? It was probably Nick that said it anyways. Probably actually pressured me into it.
SPEAKER_01I definitely would have said it 10 years ago for sure.
SPEAKER_03I did say it.
SPEAKER_01Or 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_0310 days ago I said it.
SPEAKER_01We're almost 40. So 10 years ago doesn't work anymore.
SPEAKER_03It is funny. You said we're almost 40. I'm like, my back hurts today. And I'm like, yep. I feel it. I feel almost 40. Exactly. Uh it's dressed almost 40. Belt on.
SPEAKER_01Looks good. Old man. Yeah, you're a well-dressed person, William. Like an like an old fart. Yeah. But a well-dressed old fart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're gonna be a well-dressed old person. Which we've known since high school, actually. Yes, this is true. Yeah, so it makes sense. Uh we haven't recorded in uh ten days at least, probably. It's been over a week, I think. We had to back to back record ex Machina and Dread, as we said on the previous two episodes or so. It I think it's been almost two weeks, yeah, since we've been recording. So how are we? It's been a while. How are you, William? I've seen you in between those times.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've hung out a bit. I'm okay. Uh, work's pretty stressful. The the heat in this goddamn state, man, came out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_01I was in the I think it's everywhere.
SPEAKER_03I know it'll it always does like a snap freeze in April, so I know it'll cool down, but it did catch me off guard. My allergies aren't too bad, thankfully. Oh no. I'm sleeping okay, thankfully. Like the room is cool. Yeah. That's the heat is it's it's the end of the world for me.
SPEAKER_01Well, you like it's hot at night. For people who don't know you, which everyone who listens to the podcast knows you, but you're a man who likes jackets and pants.
SPEAKER_03I love cold weather clothes. I love hiding under layers, I love a light jacket, and yeah, no, the the the heat is not my friend, but if I'm sleeping comfortably, I can tolerate the heat during the day. And so far that's where I'm at. So I'm not cranky about the heat yet. Yeah, during the day, I'm like, what is this shit? Then I go to bed. I'm like, yeah, I can handle this. Yeah, I can do okay. Using some ceiling fans, Shepard hates them. I think he thinks they're giant birds. I don't know. Yeah, could be something like that. Yeah, he freaks out, but he's doing better because I keep one on, you know, slow. And he just he literally is like while he's hanging out, he's just staring at it. Like it's like we're having a conversation. He's just like, yeah, uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it's just out the corner of his eyes, so he won't let it out of his sight just in case it swoops down or something.
SPEAKER_02Poor simple boy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, poor little guy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, I am in love, fully, completely, warm embrace with Pokemon Pocopia. It's so much fun. Hell yeah. It's uh it's so lame how much fun I'm like looking squirtle and bulbasaur chasing each other. Oh yeah. Look how cute that is. So yeah, but trend sleeping on a bench like a hobo, and it's adorable. Oh yeah. It makes me feel good, makes me smile. Pokemon interactions are very fun with that. It's the best part of the whole game, it's just watching these guys interact. Yeah. I said these guys, I'm talking about uh cartoon bugs, but I'm loving it. They're pocket monsters.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I'm glad that you're enjoying that. I am as well. I'm really, really fighting not to be overwhelmed with how much shit there is to do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I've walked in because you open with one area, like one biome, and then through events of the game, you can go to easily two others. I went to both. I went to one, walked immediately out and said, I don't think this is for me. Went to the other one and just accidentally started doing the quest lines there. I was like, I guess I'm here now. And I'm like, I I don't like this. I don't there's too much. I want to go back to my original.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I I stay at my original most of the time and just hang out with the same ten guys.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I and I know that I can play these kind of cozy games as they call them, because I I did put in hundreds of hours into Stardew Valley over the pandemic. And it just comes with pacing yourself, and I haven't found a pace with this yet. Uh just because I have to play intermittently with Leo. And if I play without Leo, I can't get new Pokemon because he knows. So he'll I I I played a couple times without him. We I let him name the character Ditto Dump, uh, is our character's name, and let him do all the Williams favorite uh Dolly dress up. That's the best part. Um the the one time that I got like two new Pokemon when he wasn't playing. The next time I played with him, he's like, Who's that? Who's that Pokemon? And then I have to I have to lie to my son about oh, he just showed up, you know what I mean? So I can only really do cleanup, which is actually a good thing to do when I'm just playing solo. But yeah, I'm I've yet to find a rhythm. And I just unlocked a different area after completing one of the main quest lines in a new area, and I was just like, God damn it. It's more options, yeah, and it I I don't like it. Each area is so fucking big on its own, and I'm like exploring, climbing up as high as I can go, and I'm like, oh, maybe I can build a house up here, something like that. And it's like I haven't I've only built like straw beds for the Pokemon, I haven't made many houses or anything like that. Like, cause it's like I don't know what I'm gonna want to do. Yeah, so it's it's very overwhelming, but it's one of those things you can just pick up and go. So it's it's not there's no wrong way to do it. Yeah, I forget that there's not a lot of pressure, minus the social media Instagram reels of people who like making functional subways and all this kind of insane shit.
SPEAKER_03And it was it's it's the same problem I had in honestly, so I was gonna say it's the same problem I had in Animal Crossing, yeah, and then my brain went, No, it's the same problem I had in art class where I don't have a creative mind where I have an idea and I execute. I like techniques when it comes to art class, like I like, you know, oh, crosshatch, stipple, charcoal, blending. I'm like, this is cool. If you give me an assignment, I get excited using the techniques on the assignment. When the teacher gives me the paper and says, Okay, paint with acrylic. Yeah. And I go, yeah, but what? They said, Whatever you want. Yeah. I'm like, motherfucker. Now I'm stuck watching everybody else and going, Oh, that's a good idea. Can I copy that idea through my brain and it never works? Yeah. And then I'm just like, I don't know what to do. It's option paralysis. Kinda, yeah. But it's just m my brain struggles to creative with a blank slate sometimes is really hard for me. Yeah. And that's what these games are like you can tear this whole place down and build it how you want. And I'm like, no, I'd rather you tell me where to put the houses.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's that struggle between doing the missions, because there are missions. There's story little things and and there's tasks and doing your own thing. Yep. Like the balance of that is is hard to find with those kind of games for I think people with brains like ours. So but it just takes time. I don't I don't remember how I locked into Stardew Valley. I just think it was the pandemic and I didn't have a kid yet, and it was just it was it's a very well-made game, and it's very fun. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03That has a little bit more of a structure on the routine, the way the timing is. So it's more well, I got I have to go do this. Very true. Um yeah, this, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the mechanics in Pocopi are so fun with they are the way that you catch Pokemon for people not in the know is you set up little biomes. It'd be like, oh, four tiles of grass, or four tiles of grass uh next to a tree or next to a boulder. And I just saw some random one of like, oh, it's like fancy dinner plates and all this shit. Like, what the fuck? Like really random stuff, but yeah, that's how you get Pokemon to appear. So it's it's kind of fun where you can set up these little things, and but it's a lot of work. I quote unquote work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I am having a lot of fun with that video game. Do you know a thing I was having zero fun with? Death Stranding 2. Yes. And we stopped playing Death Stranding 2, and now we're playing Resident Evil Requiem, which it's okay. Resident Evil's not that's a no for me, dog. Like I like some of the concepts of the creepy stuff, and I think I hate everything else. Yeah, like some of the designs are cool.
SPEAKER_01What's kind of interesting, it's it's for people who like spooky stuff, but like inventory management and puzzles. That's what that's all Resident Evil is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like that's I guess the survival horror part of it is limited health. You gotta keep track of it.
SPEAKER_01I think they care about the health. It's honestly like so much of it is resource management. Yeah, five different keys to build one key to open the door, and tiny puzzles that add up to unlocking things. So they're not very difficult puzzles, but they are puzzles, they are designed, and then you like being spooked, you know what I mean? So it it's I mean, they're uh it's a highly successful series, but yeah, that's our our friend Grant is really into them, and he's not good at them. He's awful, he is very bad at them, he likes weird viral lore, he's obsessed with like virology and all this kind of stuff. So I I get where he clicks into that, but it in terms of the execution of it, he is very bad at it. Yeah, and he's one of these folks who as an adult plays with guides a lot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, just tell me what to do, tell me where to go. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because he wants to know about the story too, he likes the lore somehow, even until it's all confusing and bullshit. But it's very fascinating because you know, if you get stuck on something and I can't figure it out, I'll of course look up a guide. We're the generation that grew up with finding guides and all this kind of thing. IGM wikis saved my life plenty of times. Exactly. That was huge in high school and college, and when uh I was in elementary school, yeah, game inform was huge. I still have a couple for augments. Nintendo power. So, like, uh, because when I was a kid, it's like I can't figure out a lot of these puzzles.
SPEAKER_03No, no. I mean, that's still one of the things that's I think fun and oddly passive interactive with the FromSoft games, is like Yeah, there's that's a wiki community, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which that makes sense with the lore and you can see the connective tissue and stuff, but it's fascinating. For me, it's like I don't want to look at guides because I don't want to be spoiled.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But there are those subset of gamers, and and Grant is one of them where it's just like, oh, he's fine. He just wants to get through it, you know, he enjoys it. But if the puzzle's too difficult or he's looking for strategies, he'll look for it. So it's you know.
SPEAKER_03I feel like when you say our friend likes virology and he's kind of interested in that and he likes being spooked, I feel like you having someone goes, Oh, I like virology, you go, Oh, you should try Resident Evil. That's as if you saying you love hard sci-fi, and I go, Did you watch the Valerian movie? Like a Luke Bason, like, oh, you should check out the fifth element. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you love Solaris, you would love the fifth element. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, like this is the dumbest, makes no sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, in terms of the subject matter of virology, it is it feels insulting how stupid all of this stuff is.
SPEAKER_03So that's what I'm saying. It's like it feels like it would be insulting, but that's why he likes it. That's crazy to me. I know. It is crazy to me.
SPEAKER_01And it's also like different strokes for different folks, you know.
SPEAKER_03I I can't comprehend, and I know a lot of people. There's a there's a comedian that I uh really like in Have a Dude Crush On. He loves Kojima. Oh, and he talks about destraining being the the best thing ever, and I'm like, I don't comprehend what is likable about this game. To the point where uh my self-centeredness gets, and I've done this a few times in life where I go, I think you're lying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, are you fucking with me?
SPEAKER_03I don't think you're being honest that you actually like this because I can't even fathom what's likable, and then when I hear you talk about it, I'm like, I don't believe you. Yeah, this feels like a put on. Yeah, it's this can't be enjoyable for people that have any understanding of narrative, emotion, human interaction, or the concepts of the world. Because it's also it's not it's not surreal where it goes, well, we're breaking all of that. It's not that either, it's photorealistic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the collision of the two.
SPEAKER_03And it's I would respect a collision. That would be cool. That would be a fascinating concept, and it's not even that. It goes, no, it's real with the dumbest names possible. Yeah. And I'm I'm so mad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I hey, I'm right there with you. You're preaching to the choir. I am very excited we're on the Resident Evil Requiem and we'll play some other fun stuff after that. I really want to do Sakuro, I know uh Halo campaign evolved once that comes out for PlayStation later this year. But yes, I've and I've talked about it you know years ago on this podcast with Death Stranding. Death Stranding and its sequel are probably top three, if not number one, of the worst games I've ever played. I absolutely despise them in every way, shape, or form. Um I'm shaking my head in disgust while you're saying it's seriously like and of course there's cool moments, of course there are. Sure. Uh really cool set pieces, yeah, and funny ideas, and they are gorgeous. The opening cinematic of Death Stranding 2, I was like, holy fuck, it literally looks like a Ridley Scott movie. Like it it it it it looks photo real, but the games themselves I absolutely hate with every fiber of my being. I mean, there wouldn't be a playthrough that wouldn't end with me just shaking my fucking head because it it don't it the game is feels so insulting that it's like kicking you in the nuts over and over and over again with how bad it is. But hey, that's just two people's opinion.
SPEAKER_03One of the random guys in a cutscene, because of course everything's through cutscenes. This is my problem, and this might come up with this movie if we start talking adaptations, is what makes video games and artistic medium unique to itself is the interaction. Yeah. When you start playing a game and you put the controller down to now watch an animated movie, you eliminated the thing that makes this unique, which is the interaction. Yeah. So if you're reliant on your storytelling through another visual medium, which you're impersonating film, I'm now I'm getting to the age and to the point in my life that's not a good game.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's why I stand by The Last of Us as one of my greatest examples of storytelling through interaction, where you paid 30 hours of pressing X and Ellie gets the ladder for you, and she just went through something something traumatizing. You push X and she doesn't respond. Through the gameplay mechanic, they are telling you emotional things about the character. It's not a cutscene. Yep. They're playing with the interaction that you do, they're playing with the mechanics, they're playing with all of that to tell the story. It's one of the most transcendent things a video game has ever done to me. And then you get to games like Death Stranding, and it's a 10-minute cutscene. I'm like, this isn't a game anymore. Yeah. So I'm why what am I doing? And it's it's not even a good-looking movie.
SPEAKER_01And on top of that, it none of it makes any sense.
SPEAKER_03And the guy puts a bandana on, and now he looks like Solid Snake from the other game, and everyone points and goes, Oh shit, that's genius. It looks like the guy from the other. And I said, What does that mean?
SPEAKER_01And the answer is, uh, it's Gojima, bro.
SPEAKER_03You wouldn't get it. Does he get it? No. Does anybody get it? And that's where I go, I think you're all lying to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. This is they're lying to themselves.
SPEAKER_03Me and my cousin would, we would me and Sean would stay the night at my cousin Jonathan's house. Sean and Jonathan are the same age, five years younger than me. We wanted to play Grand Theft Auto Vice City on the PlayStation 2, but we would take turns. We thought it was a funny bully thing to not play until Sean falls asleep. So the way to make Sean fall asleep, we would play, we would turn the TV on and watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine at like 1.30 in the morning. And Sean would say, You guys don't even like this show. You're just trying to make me fall asleep. And me and Jonathan would go, This is our favorite show of all time. We love watching this show. We're all fighting not to fall asleep. The minute Sean passes out, we turn it on mute, and then we load up Vice City and we would play by ourselves laughing. Then we trick Sean into falling asleep. I feel like everyone's doing that to me with Kojima, where they're like, No, we like this. You don't get it.
SPEAKER_01And then behind the back, they're just like, Yeah, it's really terrible, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I feel like this is a billion dollar prank on just me. Yeah. Where they're like, he actually thinks we like this shit. The guy's name is uh dead man because he died. Like, and I'm like, God damn it. I know you're lying, I just can't prove it yet. Yeah, yeah. This is my you you put the two towers falling on the dollar bill. And I'm like, I know you did that to fuck with me, and I'm gonna prove it. There's no way anyone likes Kojima shit like this. I don't know, man. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01It's tough. It's inexplicable. It's inexplicable. And that's not gonna be the first time that The Last of Us gets brought up on today's episode, I can tell you that. They can't. But that yeah, so good video game stuff, good yeah, fun video games and moving away from a hated video game towards feels good, a more acceptable video game.
SPEAKER_03How have you been? Yeah, just busy. What are you busy with, Nick? Did something finish? Are you on to the next steps on a big thing in your life?
SPEAKER_01Yes, thanks to William and almost William Solely. Uh uh my comic book, Redeemer Part One, was funded on Kickstarter, thanks to executive producer William Ernst. Uh I don't know what you're talking about. Very thankful, and I expressed my thanks, you know, when when you did. Of course. And um, of course I love you, and yes, I appreciate you supporting me and uh well really supporting the artists because I'm not getting paid.
SPEAKER_03But your your visions come into light.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate it. I've I've appreciated it, and all the support from my other friends who have donated, of course.
SPEAKER_03It's a lot, yes, it's a good amount of people. Yeah, if you think your close friend groups, like what, 15 people?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's like almost a hundred people. No, it's true. Yeah, we I think we did crack a hundred, which is very nice of everyone. That's awesome. So, yes, the Kickstarter was successful. Moving on to we're, you know, just the middle of production and now scheduling and logistics, getting quotes for printing the book, uh, sending off designs to like for the pins and the stickers, and and trying to just find the right balance of production schedule that we're not burning anybody out, but we're also wanting to deliver uh in September, if not earlier, uh everything except for the toy. So yeah, just scheduling there and yeah, I gotta do a bunch of stuff, mailing lists, social media, and then yeah, I gotta I'm gonna rewrite some of the part two script just to uh take it easier on Mauricio. I'm gonna rewrite it a little more Marvel style because he's you know feels constrained by how tightly I script. I think it's fine. I mean more quips.
SPEAKER_03No, I can't believe that just happened, stuff like that. Jokes like that.
SPEAKER_01Luckily, I uh Obama era meme jokes. Luckily, I don't, yeah, I have final say on on all that stuff, uh dialogue-wise, but in terms of panel layouts and stuff, he wants a little more freedom, which I think is if it's if that's gonna give me his best work, I'm fine with that. Because I'm just a very visual writer, so I do panel by panel breakdown. And on comp when you with comic book script, there's the there's a spectrum.
SPEAKER_03You mean Marvel comics and not the Marvel movies. Correct. I legitimately wish I could say it was a joke, but I am serious. I forgot Marvel also does comics, and I was just when you said Marvel, it's just synonymous with the film. TV podcast, you know, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, it's the Marvel style of writing a comic book is you say, Hey, you put a paragraph of this is what happens on this page, and this is the dialogue that the characters are gonna say, and sometimes not even that. Okay, but you just tell the artist, as the writer, this is what needs to happen on this page. You come up with the how many panels you're gonna do, you come up with the angles, all this kind of stuff as an artist, and then on the other opposite end of that spectrum is full script, where yeah, it's like crazy Alan Moore shit where it's a full fucking page of text of like extremely detailed panel one three of them that looks like this.
SPEAKER_03Three of the five fingers are in frame, exactly cut off at the ring finger, type of yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm especially the when I'm writing a project or starting a new project, I write the whole thing being the script of the issue before I approach any artist to do the thing. So it's like I have to see it in my head fully, and I want them to have something to read, so I script it fully and panel layouts and everything. So um that's just how I write. But now that I'm actually working with an artist, and if he prefers a little, if he wants a little more wiggle room, that's and he's perfectly fine with me saying, No, I need this moment, I need I need a panel like this, this needs to happen. Um, but in between those, have Adam, man, if you want to go for dynamic. Because I I I as a writer I go for emotion, and as an artist, I mean he's an artist, so it's like he goes for action and excitement. So it's like hopefully it's a good balance. But yeah, so um there's a lot of work to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, other than that, just been ill for like the past. You you are the illist. Yes, I am wait, you mean sick or cool? Well, both. Hell yeah. Um, but yeah, goddamn right. Speaking of the stress, I apparently have something like shingles. Ew. Um I'm sorry. Which I guess is some kind of herpes. It's just like chicken pox or something for adults, but it's like a rash. Well done. Uh so yeah, last uh weekend or something, uh no, two weekends ago, Leo had croup cough, which is just little kids get it, they kind of cough like a seal. And so, and then after that, I was having some swollen lymph nodes, and I was like, Yeah, maybe I'm fighting off this thing that he had, and then it just like moved up my nerves to my head, and I had these swollen things on my head, and it would they were just really sensitive, it's really painful. It's like whenever you get the only way that I can describe it is either I got hit with a baseball bat on my neck, and it just fucking hurt and ached and kind of burned. It it feels like that, and like that soreness of when you get a shot, you know, like a flu shot. I mean, you don't get microchipped, right? But I do every year, and it's like that soreness, but it was right on my neck and the behind my ear and up in my head, and then it just started to like rash out on my head, so I was like super fucking itchy and burning. And yeah, I went to the doctor a couple times and antibiotics weren't working, and then they got me on some antiviral stuff, and that's working. So, yeah, still, but I'm like, Oh yeah, okay, that tracks has been one of the most stressful things I've ever done. Yeah, and at least I got it, you know, at the end of the campaign, not like when I had to make a bunch of videos and all this kind of shit. So acting. So that was so it sucks. I haven't been able to exercise, and yeah, it's still sensitive, hurts, still taking pain meds every four hours, but you know, hopefully in the next couple weeks it'll calm down. Definitely gonna miss the 10k run that I signed up for in April, that's for sure. But I'll it's okay. I'll just do it.
SPEAKER_03Kira's gonna do it in your name.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'll uh I'll just do a 15k in the fall. But um, yeah, so just kind of on the mend there. But yeah, just a viral kind of thing. That sucks, man.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01No, that's okay. I'm glad you're doing better. What are you gonna do? Yeah, it's at least getting better now with the antiviral meds, and yeah, it totally fucking tracks with just being super stressed out. And and yeah, if you've had chicken pox before, you have the virus in you already, and it just waits for something to trigger it, either another, you know, illness or something, which I think that's what happened to me, is just I've been so stressed out, my immune system's down, and then Leo's virus thing kind of hit me and something reactivated it, you know. Yeah, um, and I and I'm on my head isn't a bad place to have it now that it's under control because most of the time it's like on your ribs or something, it's like on your ribs or it's on your neck, and it like blisters and all this kind of stuff. But the skin on your scalp, my doctor was saying, is just different, so it's not usually not as bad on the top of your head. It looks a little bit different. Um, so hopefully it won't, you know. I don't know, we'll we'll see what happens. But and I need desperately need a fucking haircut, but now I can't cut my hair because I'm because you're gross, yeah. So it's uh they're gonna look at you and go, yuck. And I don't want to do that to my barber, he's too nice of a guy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so I I look like shit, I've been feeling like shit, and all these motherfuckers will step up. All right, so there we go. Perfect transition in Olympus because you guys are welcome. Uh but I am looking like shit. I look haggard as fuck. My beard's really long. Well, you can shave your hair. These are choice.
SPEAKER_03My pubes are really long. It is bad. You could tie them all together. I know, I really, yeah, it gotta what made you stop the beard and the pubes? I get the hair because another person does it.
SPEAKER_01Well, and that's Did you just say fuck it? No, well, yeah, I think the pubes were just like it's one of those things you gotta do at the end of the night, and I've just been fucking lazy uh not feeling well. And the beard is I I do get it trimmed with my hair, so but it's still gonna be a couple weeks, but it's gonna look like shit no matter what. I don't know. It's I'm in a I'm in a bad spot. Yeah, you're fun, you don't look that ugly. Yeah, I just I'm in a rough period, you know. But other than that, yeah, good Kickstarters successfully. On to the next, on to the next, really have a lot of work to do, but yeah, it's been good, it's been good. Saw some good movies. We saw Project Hail Mary last year. Sure, just kidding. That was fun. Uh I don't know if you enjoyed it. I liked it a lot. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_03It's a lot of fun. Yeah, it's the pacing's not perfect for me. Yeah, yeah. I think, um, which we'll also get into is because from my understanding, it's a book. I don't read books, so I don't know what the book's like. It felt like the uh the inner cutting of time was a carryover from the book, and I think sometimes it didn't work. I didn't need it as much as they used it or when they used it. Gotcha. Other than that, incredibly fun. Yeah, I'm almost kind of sort of smiling the whole time. Yeah. There's some criticism online that I just I don't get it that people are like, oh, it's like they use stupid terms. I don't even want to say the term because it just it it bugs me and it's gonna annoy you if I even say it. But like it's just hopeful. Yeah, it's a positive movie, yeah, and people are just like, ew. And I'm like, what do you mean, ew? Yeah, that's not bad. We it let's balance this out. None of you motherfuckers saw train dreams because it looks sad and boring, and then there's a movie that looks cool, fun, and happy, and you don't like that either. Yeah, like I digress, but I loved that this movie made me smile as much as it did, and I'm having fun, and it looks really fucking good. Yeah, Greg Frazier. Very clever. Yeah, Greg Fraser is he's becoming something special, man. He knows what he's doing with digital, he knows what he's doing with effects.
SPEAKER_01I'm just bummed he's working on all those Beatles movies for the next fucking whatever years because he's not gonna be in sci-fi.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's not doing Batman and he's not doing Dune, and it bums me out. But have fun with that, then get back to it. Yeah, get back to Denny sometime or Matt Reeves. I think I'd rather you work with Matt Reeves because I think Denny can work with a bunch of other people and it'd be fine. It was fun watching with Deacons and stuff. True, true. But I love Project Hill Mary, I thought it was great. Yeah, I also couldn't stop thinking Ryan Gosselin's a man. He's so fucking good. It's easy to forget because it's a silly kind of fun role, how good of an actor he is in this. Oh, yeah. Not just with like the oh, well, he gets sad sometimes. It's like, no, it's not easy to be charming and charismatic. People think that's easy. Yeah, that's not easy, and he's very naturally charming and charismatic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's one, he's a he's a capital M movie star. He really is. Like he understands the craft, he understands the subtle movements of his face, he under like he understands movies where the decisions that he makes with his face, the expressions that he gives, they're so self-aware in terms of like the precision of his craft.
SPEAKER_03Like I we don't have many of those.
SPEAKER_01No, we don't.
SPEAKER_03We're in the age of people loving character actors like Christian Bale, Philip Seymour Hoffman. Like that's a different skill set.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, embodying characters, really getting lost in it. But like this is different, you know. I'm like, oh, he fucking knows the camera's capturing this right now in this moment at this angle.
SPEAKER_03Like we're talking Tom Cruise shit. Exactly, exactly, and that's rare.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's fucking top of his game. Yeah, he's really good.
SPEAKER_03It was a lot of fun to watch him be good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and he does the whole range, yeah.
SPEAKER_03He does it all. That's what I'm saying. Is like I didn't look at this going, oh, he's good in this because he's crying. I'm like, no, he's good when he's being silly, he's good when he's like excited. He was because he did so much. Yes. I was watching this being like, fuck man, you're really you're you're doing the damn thing. Yeah, I like to watch you do it. Absolutely kills it because this movie looks good. Lord and Miller need to direct so much more, yeah, so much more. They know how to direct action without chaos. They're so good at this stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I really want them to direct a lot more. They got stuck in producer world for a while, which is also good because they have great um instincts. Yes. So they've worked on really quality projects, but I I want their uh I want their I want their work to keep going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just a big gap and working in animation, you know, it's uh it takes a long time and they got burned. Maybe they got fucking burned with solo, so I don't I don't really blame them. But yeah, really had a good time with that. I've seen it twice. Uh nice, good for you. Yeah, really, really good time. But yeah, switching over to Annihilation.
SPEAKER_03Uh we already talked about video games, adaptations, Project Helmary's from a book, Annihilation's from a book. Yes. Again, I don't read books. I'm stupid. If Colin Quinn or Tina Faye didn't write it, I didn't read it. You've read the book. Yes. Did you read the book first before you ever saw the movie, or was it a oh, I want to read that book?
SPEAKER_01I read the trilogy before the movie came out. Yes, because the the actual the trilogy was released pretty like every six months or seven months, I think a book came out. So if I'm remembering my timelines correctly.
SPEAKER_03But you're not, but it's okay. Just kidding.
SPEAKER_01Very true. But I wouldn't know. Yeah, I read the book before I saw the movie. Okay. Which, yeah, I actually kind of have a complicated relationship with this movie. Yes, you do. And I think I alluded to it by alluding to it. I mean, I think I said at the beginning of the movie.
SPEAKER_03Said it outright maybe two times already.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that I this began uh, which I don't know if it's holding up very well. I think it's just, you know, my relationship with this movie. Uh, but I was like, oh yeah, I think Alex Darling has first act problems. And actually, rewatching Ex Machina, I don't mind the first act as much as I used to. Uh kind of it doesn't throw me off as much watching that. But watching this, I know exactly why I don't like the first act of this movie. And now I can see it with a much more bird's eye view. And actually, watching this was like a really kind of cathartic thing where I'm just like, okay, I know where I stand with this movie now. And I I feel like I've I've found peace with this movie. Yeah, fighting it for the reasons we'll we'll I'll I'll get into shortly. But yes, I I read the books before I saw the movie because I heard that he was making the movie. Okay, that's why. So I didn't just come across across Jeff Vandermeer's work. I think maybe I saw him on Twitter or something like that. He used to be pretty prolific on Twitter, but uh I saw because there's this is a huge fucking gap. I had to double check. I was like, hold on, X Machino was 2014 and and all Annihilation is 2018. I was like, what the fuck? Yeah, like that really kind of threw me off.
SPEAKER_03And we haven't we haven't talked about this all the way with Alex Garlin is Dave brought up he's done pros, he's done short stories, he's done novels, he's also done a lot of for hire work on video games.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03He uh he'll take a job, he doesn't mind taking a job. And he loves the medium, he loves video games, so when people come on and they're like, hey, can you work on this enslaved game or one of the Devil May Cry games? He's like, Yeah, sure, that sounds like easy money, and it will be kind of fun. So he he has stayed busy in other things, we're only covering the uh the feature and television that he's written.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And I think some of that was uh, you know, uh a little bit before it was in that direct world transition, you know. But yeah, I don't uh I think it just took a long time to develop, and I know they had to delay the movie for a year because of Natalie Portman's schedule. Yeah, so they took a whole year off. Uh so I think it would have come out in 2017, it only would have been three years, but they had to push filming off for her. So I I had I heard him about him working on it, and that's why I went out to get the books. Um and I did plan to I did plan to read the reread the book. It's only 200 pages before we read this, but then I've been sick and I was doing all this stuff. So I only read about like 50 pages into it, but it gave me enough of a refresher to be like, oh yeah, I really enjoy this book. You like the book, and it's very different, it is extremely different.
SPEAKER_03Can I tell you my adaptation story? Not about the movie, sure, but about adaptations. I don't know if I've ever told you this. Uh, we went to UNM together, took classes, yeah, film, and then I switched over to CNM.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03I was taking film classes there. I was given a writing assignment with my film class, which I I did not like this uh teacher. I wanted to call him professor, and I think teacher's lesser, and I did that on purpose just to twist that knife because I didn't like him. Details. So this teacher for hire of this film class gave the writing assignment about failed adaptations.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03And I think mine was the Philip K. Dick, the Do Android's Dream of Electric Sheep.
SPEAKER_02And Blade Runner.
SPEAKER_03And Blade Runner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I wrote typical William, Long-winded ass, wrote a pretty long paper about how I reject the simple concept of you telling me that this is a for sure a failed adaptation.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that is a very presumptuous and subjective thing. For sure.
SPEAKER_03So my paper was more about that than it was just breaking down this is what there's a short story, this is what the movie got wrong, therefore failed adaptation. I did more of I even spoke about Kubrick and AI and Spielberg, and I I did a whole thing. Yeah. A whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Hey teach, I got something to sue.
SPEAKER_03I got some shit to say, and I gotta lay this out for you, you fucking fur hire noob. That uh I had to sit and watch him talk about days of heaven, and it was rough. I will give him credit that he was some sort of weird Christian and he knew all the biblical references. And I was like, okay, shout out you. That's cool. I'm glad you brought that up because it's very uh heavy on its uh allegories to the Bible. But I went to that class, turned the paper in. Typical film class. The first half, you discuss what you watched last week, you take a break, you come back, you watch a movie that you're gonna discuss next week. Yeah, all of these movies, like I said, we did Days of Heaven. I fucking own Days of Heaven. I got shit to do. So I would go home. I wouldn't stay every time to watch the films because I've seen these films a million times. I've already talked about these. Yeah, I'll write the paper, I'm gonna crush it. So I go in, sit down, paper in hand. He's like, Hey, can I see you outside? I was like, Yeah, sure, sure. I hand him my paper, he goes, Yeah, sure, I'm dropping you from the class. And I was like, What? He goes, Yeah, and he had a smugness to it, and I was like, Okay, so like not he's like, Yeah, you're done, man. Because he takes attendance after the film, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I'm home, so I'm not attending the full-on class. He thought I wasn't participating in that, so he dropped me from the class. Yikes, just made me lose whatever scholarship I had, so I can't no longer afford going to school. So I stopped going to school altogether because this guy dropped me, and he never read my paper because I handed it in the day he dropped me. And that was a bigger issue for me. Is I was like, I almost wanted to be like, still read that shit, you motherfucker. Yeah, yeah. That's my last dig at you, like you asshole. So he never read that. I've always had the issue with the concept of adaptations, and by issue I mean me personally. Okay. The Mario movie, what was it called? Super Mario Super Mario Bros.
SPEAKER_01The Super Mario Brothers movie.
SPEAKER_03It is a fun kids' movie, all the colors, all the sounds, all the images, Rainbow Road, Donkey Kong, everything looks like those games. That is not what the games are. It doesn't play like the game, it doesn't use the same concepts as the game, it's its own original story. That is a failed adaptation of the video game, if you want to get down to it.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. Well, yeah, it's not a it's a failed direct adaptation. That's what I'm saying. Sure. So adaptation can be, you know, it is about adapting.
SPEAKER_03So but this is what I'm saying is I think that movie's fine. For a kid's movie, I think that's a good movie. Yeah, yeah. Is it a good Mario Brother video game movie? I mean, no. Yeah, but that wouldn't make a good movie. So I'm glad you have to change. Exactly. Yeah, I think the first season of The Last of Us TV show is a really good season of TV. Is it as good as the game? Absolutely not. But it's a good adaptation. It's a good adaptation, and for the medium, it is television. It is a really good season of television. Yes. And the things they change, I really liked them. It's maybe my favorite stuff in that first season was the stuff they changed. The brother and the the the adding. You went your own way with stuff. Bill has a full episode. Yep. That's subtext in the game.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03That's ancillary, that's supplemental materials you gotta read and dig through to find that story. They give him a full hour. That's really cool. As a one-to-one, is it a great adaptation of the video game? Yes and no, but that's not the part that makes the television show the best part. So how to adapt, why to adapt. I struggle with that a lot when it comes to books because I don't read, my mind isn't uh precious with it. Yeah. I love the Lord of the Rings movies because, as a movie, those are awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I have so much fun watching those as a movie. I've heard plenty of people go, I hope you know. I want you to have your fun. I'm glad you're having your fun. That's a bad adaptation of those books. You're leaving out some people's favorite characters, you mishue together, you you mush the timelines, you you're fucking up sacred text here to make a popcorn movie palatable for you, idiot, that never read these books because you can't bang it out with 600 pages. Yeah, yeah. He cut all the songs out, and I'm like, thank God. He goes, I hate that you said that. Yeah, yeah. This imaginary person that's mad at me because everybody in my head is. Yes. I get that. I totally get this. So I get weird with adaptation. Is it a good idea to be faithful? Is that the purpose of an adaptation? Because then I start fighting of like, why? Why'd you move it? That's where I struggle with adaptations, is like it feels like they're good when they're good, they're bad when they're bad. I don't think Vera would be blood has anything to do with its original source material by Upton Sinclair. Yeah. I think he took one nugget. And made a two and a half hour movie that only he can make. Shout out Oscar winning two-time Paul Thomas Anderson. Hell yeah. Lay it down for the boy. That's a bad adaptation, I think most people would say. Sure. It's one of the best movies that's ever been made in the last 50 years. Yeah. It can also at the very same time be a bad adaptation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if we're talking about direct adaptations, yeah. Absolutely. And I think the successful, I mean, in this is a very broad statement, but the best adaptations take what works from the original source material and transforms it, however it needs to be transformed into the new medium, the things that make the new medium good. You know, think of Lord of the Rings, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03That's a great example of like Michael Bay Transformers.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Actually, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Um sorry, Kyle. I love you. No, but he likes those movies. Shut up, Kyle. Exactly. I love you so much. Shut your faith.
SPEAKER_01But I think that's, and the same goes with the Super Mario movie. You're taking the so in that case, it's like you're taking the elements. Yeah. Okay, these are the recognizable characters, these are the basic storylines. We can't directly adapt a video game because video games are interactive. So let's just make our own story, make it a mishmash of all. You took the set pieces. You took the basics. Yeah. You know, villains, heroes, their relationships. Let's make it our own thing, mix it with some minions because that's the production company. Yep. Boom, you got a hit. Uh, same with Lord of the Rings. We only have so much time. These books are very long. So let's just take the elements, let's have it be impactful, let's have an actual very good filmmaker, and somehow this perfect storm of adapting it from a very long book, they take out the fat and they make it work into this beautiful epic trilogy that is one giant story. And same with Last of Us, I think. You know, coming from a video game, like you cannot replicate those moments, like you said, but the story is good enough at least in that first game, where it could kind of easily translate into an episodic television show.
SPEAKER_03Because they wanted the game to be as close to a movie as they could. Yes. They filmed it and recorded it and it's vo it's acted.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03So it's it's already close to film and television.
SPEAKER_01And they add these little things where like, oh, we didn't have time to explore this in the game, so let's explore this here on, you know, expanding this character or whatever. So it works very well. And I think many failed adaptations, they either miss what makes the original story work, yeah, or they trample over the original elements of it. It's it's something there's a miscommunication of like, oh, you missed what made this cool.
SPEAKER_03Josh Jenkins talking about Stephen King adaptations. Yes. You looked at that, go, crazy dog kills people, put it in the theater, yeah, Jaws with a dog, or whatever they did. Yeah. Uh crazy car that kills people, crazy guy that kills it's all just something kills people. Yes. Stupid girl got a period and killed people. Like it's always just that, and they cut all the other stuff that I think Stephen King fans, like Josh was saying, is like that's not what that book's about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they take the personality out of it. Yeah, they'll they'll take the basics, they'll take the framework, but not the actual like substance that makes it work. Yeah, you know what I mean. So, yeah, and that's a great example of those Stephen King things because that's just the surface level plot, but that's not the actual story. It's the one hook. Exactly. Yeah, the hook, that's a great way to put it. So, yeah, with Alex Garland, he we already know he's adapted a couple things before Annihilation. So he adapted Never Let Me Go, which I've also read, and is also very close to the source material. So, just kind of like Dread, as we we discussed there, that's an adaptation of a comic book. He just took everything that works about the character and the world, and he made his own version of it. So before getting to Annihilation, he's done one, a very faithful, very faithful adaptation, and it's very carefully adapted, very carefully directed, and it's awesome. That is a good direct adaptation. And then you have Dread, which isn't a direct adaptation, it's he takes the core elements of the character and the tenets of it and makes his own story, and that is very good because he fits into that world, exactly, because he understands what drives the character, he understands the world and what makes the concept of it interesting, and he he can shape his own story within that. And then you come to Annihilation, and he reads the book once, and it was a manuscript form. Yeah. So before it was even published, it got optioned. And he didn't read the subsequent sequels, yeah. And after reading it once, he immediately began reading the screenplay. And he said, Okay, I'm going, or began writing the screenplay. And he talked to Jeff Vandermeer, the author, and was like, This book is so dreamlike, I'm going to kind of recreate my own version of it as if the book was a dream.
SPEAKER_03What did it feel? What did I feel while reading it? I want to take that into the film.
SPEAKER_01And I'm going to go in my own way. You do your own novel stuff. I don't want to have to rewrite my script after reading your sequel novel. So I'm just going to do this. And that's not that sounds arrogant because of my tone of voice, and I don't, it's not. Yeah. But but he's just, it's just a logistics thing of like it do and he got Jeff's blessing saying, Can I do this in this way? I think this would work best for the movie. And Jeff Vandermeer's like, Yeah, go and do it. Because Jeff Vandermeer's a he just seems like a smart guy. And that's thinking, novels and film, surprise, surprise, are two different mediums. So I I I mean, I I guess I understood then, but I still think it's an interesting choice as a filmmaker, as a guy who he he's written novels, he's written video games, he's written and directed his own stuff, and he's a done these two different types of adaptation. So one I get wanting to mix it up, I get wanting to mix it up, and I get how the plot of the novel would not make necessarily a good movie. Absolutely. Because I can I can get into it a little bit more to talk about the differences. I want you to, but just kidding, like it wouldn't be as interesting uh of a or the story wouldn't propel a visual narrative, correct, as well, because it's very interior, uh, which a lot of novels are, and that's why they're hard to adapt, especially in the in the movies. So and I get as a filmmaker why he would want to mix it up. Yeah, because it is dreamlike, so it's like it's kind of cool, and I think he had a lot uh stuff going in his head around this time, which I want to get into, and this is how I've kind of reconciled with this, but I get how he would want to mix it up because he's already done these different types of adaptations. The the more we've kind of watched his stuff, and we'll talk about this more uh starting in the coming weeks when we start devs, but he's always on the forefront of ideas, and he always has these things to say, which we've already talked about. But I think this is the first time where he is very influenced by outside material instead of him seeing into the future. Okay, more reactionary, correct. I say this not to be, I mean, whatever. I I say not to be a cunt, ridiculous shit all the fucking time. I meant it in the British way, exactly. Uh, and I am that, uh, but there's no doubt about it. But watching this, as much as I came to, or as much as I found a sense of peace with this, I do think it's a whiff. I think it's a sophomore slump movie. And yeah, I think it's kind of reactionary. And watching it, I was like, oh yeah, he just played The Last of Us and just read Annihilation and was like, I love both of these things. This was a great novel. This uh this gives me a lot of ideas. I can make it about an alien, make it about these kind of things. And I just played this amazing fucking video game. I think those two things. He was like, What am I gonna do with this? Okay, I option this, and now I'm gonna create this thing. I'm gonna almost, and I don't think it's a conscious decision, but I think he subconsciously is like, I'm I've mashed these things together. Fuck you, and I don't think it works very well. Okay, I think there are amazing moments in it, but as an actual second feature debut officially, because technically maybe ex machina is, but whatever. But we're talking about writing, directing, official credits. I think this is a sophomore slump because so much of this movie doesn't work for me. Even comparing it to the book, it's not like I'm I I'm not one of those guys who's like it's not a direct adaptation bubble. I don't give a fuck about that. Yeah, like I like how the book made me feel. The book is not really adaptable, but there's it's really honestly like the execution of the story, of the characters, of the acting that I'm just like, I don't think this movie works very well. And I mean, the fucking score, the score is the last of us. The score's the last of us, the settings the last of us. There is so much of the last of us in this, it is fucking insane.
SPEAKER_03And I it has The score's not the last of us.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. It's all acoustic fucking guitar, it's the same shit.
SPEAKER_03Okay, hold on. Let's slow our rolls because me and you are both hyperbolic.
SPEAKER_01Of course.
SPEAKER_03Is the whole when you think of the Annihilation score, no, but what do you think that's and I'm not talking about the third act. That's okay, but when you think of the score, what's the first part of the score that hits your head?
SPEAKER_01I think of that, but that's one of the high yes. Okay. Fine, William. Let me correct and be specific, okay?
SPEAKER_03He's using I and I don't know who it is. I didn't do the research. There's some folk song. It's not Gordon Lightfoot.
SPEAKER_01Uh no, no, he uses that. No, it's there's acoustic shit that's not that song. There's stuff that of the score that is written.
SPEAKER_03It's not Gustavo finger picking. I didn't hear it.
SPEAKER_01It's in there.
SPEAKER_03I didn't hear it.
SPEAKER_01It's in there.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Before they get to the third act, it is in there. There's a lot of acoustic driving stuff, and it's not just that folk song.
SPEAKER_03Um because they use it multiple times. Yeah, they use three or four.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. They do. But there's other times when they're walking through the swamp, which looks just like the fucking Last of Us, and it's the backpacks, and it's the fucking acoustic guitar going. Yes. But of course, that's very different from the third act, which is fucking the alien cool shit, which we all know and love. Which that's one of the fucking highlights of the movie. But but again, like I said, it's not all The Last of Us. It is this mashup. It's like I can tell what piqued his interest at the end of the day. When the last couples come out, uh 2013, I believe. Yeah. So it's like 2013, he was making Ex Machina. He didn't play The Last of Us after after the last after X Machina came out, he caught up on it. He played it in those mid-aughts when he was making this movie. So like it's all lining up to me where it's just like he had a kernel of an idea come out of reading this cool novel, right? This very moody, very lush, very odd dream-like novel. And it's like I could take this in a fun science fiction way, because this is, I mean, in a in a in a in a way, sunshine is the closest to this in terms of like unknowable, but we the sun is knowable. We we know it, but we can't comprehend it, right? It's power and but this is this is kind of his first film that isn't about technology and humanity's interaction with technology, yes, in a way. This is about something truly incomprehensible, something alien, which he even will he'll touch upon when we get to Dev's, which is going to be super fascinating to deal with. And his spiritual side, you know, uh the humanity kind of trying to reconcile with what we've created or or what created us, that kind of stuff. We've already talked about these themes, but this is the first time where he's got this kernel of an idea, and it just feels like he's been influenced by outside stuff instead of having an idea of like, I have this thing to say. Because the the the themes about self-destruction are interesting, but that's nowhere in the novel. That's that's that's a that's a thing that he puts into it. While I do think it's fascinating, I was like, wow, this is the first time that I don't like his exposition. I'm like, this sounds like an actor saying these things.
SPEAKER_03There's a scene I hate in this movie, and I'm like, how'd you write this scene?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. There are many of those to me.
SPEAKER_03I was like how the guy that you just wrote ex machina and you wrote this scene. And I I I I had trouble brushing against that.
SPEAKER_01And I was like, that this isn't all of the acting is very stiff, the dialogue is stiff, like I need to go on record real quick.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I love Jennifer Jason Lee. Yeah, yeah. I just want to put that out there before we talk about how bad she is in this movie. No, I and I don't think I and I don't think she's doing well because it's not stoic. She comes off pissed off. Yes, she comes off upset at everything.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And I don't know if that's what she's trying to come off as.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if any of the characters kind of know what they're going for.
SPEAKER_03She feels like the only one that is, I think you're doing something different. I think some of the other people, Gina Rodri or Gina believe it's pronounced Gina. The Gina gal, I think does the best.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03But she has the most to work with where it's obvious. She goes, I'm gonna be kind of cool, and then I'm gonna wig the fuck out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Tessa Thompson, I think, is doing something subtle. It's hit or miss. Jennifer Jason Lee, I think she's going for a specific thing, and it comes off as you just look pissed the whole time. Yeah. Like you look like you hate everybody, you hate that you're here, and you're just mad, and the whole like, well, she has cancer. It's like, nah, no, no, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like she's mad. Yeah, that's different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I don't think that's what she intended. And so I think she's doing bad in this film. I don't think the other people are doing bad. It's very spotty at at worst. I just think that there's no Jennifer's doing bad.
SPEAKER_01It's surface level stuff. Like that's just the substance isn't there, so they don't have anything to go off of. So it's not necessarily.
SPEAKER_03I think it's very minimal. Yeah. Uh Natalie Portman, I do love in all facets of life. Maybe not her uh political views. I don't know where she stands with Israel right now. Yeah. But I don't love her in this movie. No. Because again, I have trouble conceiving what are you doing in this scene? Because you also look mad when I don't know if you're if you are. Yeah. I don't know what you're what's your character doing right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The internal struggle that everyone's going through, I think Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Lee aren't doing good with acting with an internal struggle. I think Tessa does. That's all internal. She doesn't have an outburst like Gyna does. Sure. I think she does okay with it. I get it. There's a sadness there and the quiet and the calm that I do like. And there's a whole other person in this cast that I can't tell you the character name or her name. Is it Josie?
SPEAKER_01Shepard.
SPEAKER_03Shout out my boy Shepherd. Not named after this, I'll tell you that much. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But who that character doesn't exist in the novel. She's fine. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not good, not bad. She's there, and when she dies, I'm like, yeah, of course. Get her out of here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. So let's let me dive into some of the differences between the novel and the book. And let's get back to. I apologize, I was kind of disranting a little bit earlier, but I'm all over the book.
SPEAKER_03I think you set the stage. I do want to ask a quick question. How long is the book? 200 pages. Okay.
SPEAKER_01It's quick. Not too big. I already said that earlier in the episode.
SPEAKER_03And that's what I'm asking now, is I forgot.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So it's it's a quick read. And the reason why I despise the first act of this movie is because from page one, they're in area X. Okay. And she's immediately like, I we just crossed the border. I don't remember it because the psychologist hypnotized us to help us pass through. And essentially the way the way that it's set up is you immediately begin the investigation of the area. And as the book goes, as they discover things, you discover about her that her husband has been here before.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And that he inexplicably showed up after being missing. And everyone on his mission also showed up. And this is the first time that has happened. And Area X has been around for 30 years. So it is a well-known phenomenon. They've had many expeditions. The governmental body that deals with it, Southern Reach, is like a thing in the world. It was formed to investigate this phenomenon that's been around for three decades. Okay. So, and that goddamn, which the fucking chapter headings in this movie bug the fuck out of me. Nowhere in the novel do they call Area X the Shimmer. Fuck that. That's not in there. They, of course, he mentions there's a shimmer, but it's not called the Shimmer. It's called Area X. So the idea of when they get to the Southern Reach headquarters after they get abducted after the ambulance thing, that title says Area X. No, no, no, no. That's Southern Reach. That's the governmental agency. That's where they're at. They're at Southern Reach headquarters. Whenever they go into the Shimmer, which they call the Shimmer in the movie for some fucking reason, that's Area X. That's what Area X is called in the fucking book.
SPEAKER_03I like calling it the Shimmer. It's fucking stupid. I think it's I think Area X sounds stupid.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't make any sense.
SPEAKER_03That's placeholder. That's unobtaining.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't make any sense. It's just in terms of that is the phenomenon is called Area X because they don't know how to describe it. I get maybe the fucking whatever. It just doesn't logistically doesn't make any sense. And they don't even mention Southern Reach until they get to Fort Amaya, which I don't know, maybe that's his daughter's name, but Amaya is also the name of the tech company in devs. So I think it's just a family member or something. But um The Shimmer's a cool name. The Shimmer's stupid.
SPEAKER_03You like Area X?
SPEAKER_01That's what it is. Yeah. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_03I know that's what it's called. But you like it being called Area X. Yes. Like Elon Musk saying X is the coolest letter.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Don't make it fucking lame by calling it that.
SPEAKER_03The idea static X. The idea Project X. The idea sex. Okay, alright. Point to you. Point to you. I concede.
SPEAKER_01You're goddamn right. No, the idea of an area on a map that is a plagued with a phenomenon, calling it the shimmer is fucking stupid. You would call an area some area whatever. You could call the border whatever the shimmer, but them referring to the entire collective area as the shimmer is stupid.
SPEAKER_03You're in the shimmer. It's a big bubble. You're in the big bubble. I don't like it. I was gonna say I love it. I don't love it. I like it. It would bug me if they called the area X in the movie. That would legitimately bug.
SPEAKER_01That's just what that's what it is in the novel. That's what it is in the novel.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's why I'm never gonna read the novel.
SPEAKER_01Okay, but but that kind of threw me off a little bit. And they're not at area X. So what's area X then in the movie?
SPEAKER_03The uh Gotcha motherfucker. If I had to guess, it's where this happened. Gotcha motherhood.
SPEAKER_01The lighthouse is area X. No, that doesn't make any fucking sense. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_03Because if you gave me an a uh a map, I would draw an X on the lighthouse and go, that's where it hit.
SPEAKER_01Alright.
SPEAKER_03Area X.
SPEAKER_01I like that. Actually, that makes more sense. No, it doesn't matter. But whatever cheat logistics, I just don't like it. Sure. It's a it's an odd deviation from the novel. But structurally, he invents this entire first act where she's having an affair and the husband shows up, you see that first, you see her being interrogated first, so you know that she gets out. I don't like how he's positioning it. Where is the interrogation a book thing? No. No, you're on you're reading her logs. So as yeah, but the novel is written from her point of view into her logs.
SPEAKER_03So you jump in novel of like, I'm wigged out and I don't know the process of time right now. Like I don't know how I got here. I don't know how long I spent. Like you're already immediately in we're fucking with time. Yes. And the movie doesn't do that right away.
SPEAKER_01No, it's 30 something minutes until they get in.
SPEAKER_03She wakes up in the tent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and they take they take out this hypnosis subplot from the book. In the book, the psychologist has the power over the group, which is four people, not five people. And she is in control of the mission. You don't know her position in Southern Reach, uh, which is revealed throughout the novels. You just know she's the head of the expedition. And sh they have hypnotized the characters to help them be stable throughout the fucked up shit that's probably gonna happen in the book uh or while they're in area X, right? So but the crew knows that they're being hypnotized, but they don't always know when it's happening. So they're like, oh, we know that we're doing it now. And as we cross the border, she said that she hypnotized us so we wouldn't be traumatized. Now we're in it, and now we're gonna begin our investigation. And they essentially find what they call a tower, what she thinks is a tower, and it's almost like an inversion of the lighthouse, and it's uh it's basically like a lighthouse underground, and it's this inexplicable thing that was never on any of the maps, and so they they begin to investigate that. They see some fucking crazy writing on the wall. They're like, what the fucking invented this? It's all living, and she inhales some spores and she becomes immune to the hypnotism, and she begins to change herself, she begins to feel the glow inside. So he was inspired by The Last of Us 2, the spore thing, yeah. Well, exactly. Well, and yeah, if you will feel and that was gonna say too, with uh the production design of all the fucking mushrooms and all stuff. I'm like, yeah, again, he played the game, he saw all that shit. It's in the fucking movie.
SPEAKER_03I'll hold your fucking movie nuts before you get to that. But let's chill.
SPEAKER_01There's cool stuff. I'm not saying we get there in a second, but yeah, as the as the book progresses, yeah, of course the fucking missions fall apart. They find some mysterious creature in in the the tower, which is under underneath the ground, and then they end up going to the lighthouse. There's flashbacks to the lighthouse keeper and a little girl, and it's not necessarily a meteor, it's some kind of weird flower, which is still kind of hinted at being like alien origin kind of stuff. And you learn about the doppelgangers and all this kind of stuff, where you see that every person who has come in there into Area X has a clone somehow. They call them doppelgangers in the book, but it's just like it is here where the aliens impersonating it, or whatever the organism is impersonating. Everyone who's gotten in there has gotten one of those. And it turns, you know, I won't necessarily spoil it or anything like that, but it doesn't take this linear kind of progression that the movie does, where it's like, oh, they get there, the end goal is the lighthouse, bad shit happens along the way. It's about self-destruction, it's about annihilation, it's about becoming the alien. Yeah, exactly. It's the name of the fucking movie, and then you know we did it. Guys, we did it, and then at the end it's it's kind of solved, right? The the alien creature dies, and then the shimmer supposedly goes away. Supposedly goes away, right? And whatever we're teased with, they have the shimmer within them. But the book's not like that. Basically, just long story short, the the character goes off the beach, but not Ariac still exists. Uh, there isn't some kind of grand conclusion. And there's other books. You just learn about a little bit more about the lighthouse keeper and all this kind of stuff and the relationship with the psychologist and and that the Natalie Portman character, the biologist, is changed.
SPEAKER_03Some of the changes make sense for a film, which is if we're doing a standalone, of course, we gotta close this up. Yeah, and he kept it open because there's a universe, he can write 50 books in this world. Exactly. I get that. Yeah, the hypnotize thing it on one end, that sounds like you can get that shit off in a book. Yeah, that's gonna look weird or play weird. You only got two hours. But I feel like that could also be something Alex Scarland would have played with like, we're gonna be mentally fucked. Yeah. So we gotta deal with the mental fuckery.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a cool concept that I wish was in this film.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That you say the book has with the hypnotizing. Yes. So I'm like, oh, I wish that was there. That would be cool. I would like that. That piques my interest. But I get taking it out because they're like, that don't play in a movie.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Because it's gonna look weird. Yeah. Or it's gonna be silly.
SPEAKER_01And he doesn't know where it necessarily leads because he hasn't read the other books, right? So it's like it's I I I I get it. And it is kind of an intriguing thing where this feels like this type of adaptation is oh, this novel, I like the vibe, uh, I like some of the weird ideas of like the fucking DNA mixing and all this kind of shit. That's cool. What if it was an alien? What if it was clearly an alien, obviously an alien force that we can't comprehend? And I'm gonna go with that.
SPEAKER_03Mixed in with this other well, this is where he's pulling Tarkovsky. This is stalker, this is Solaris.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Getting the incomprehensible stuff mixed in with this cool design work that I got from this video game that I maybe I'm not consciously thinking of. But dude, sending it in Florida. Watch, I get it, watch it again, man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I just did Sunday. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Well, with this in mind, think about it. You should do your research with it. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_03Um I played the I I watched the let's play on the game. But I'm just kidding, I played the game.
SPEAKER_01I uh promise. I I get where he's coming from. So just knowing, like thinking about his mind space and what he was into, and I I a hundred percent think that he made the right choices to make it a movie, yeah. But I just think it's all over the place in terms of its execution, if that makes sense. So I I'm not I'm not bothered by the changes in the book. And that's what I was gonna say. Minus I think he could shimmer, yeah, whatever. No, no, no. Minus the first act. I hate that he explains so much and front loads it so much. It could be so much more interesting uh cutting back to it and discovering these things as it goes along. I I really do not like how much he front loads it. It just it's boring. Get to the fucking get to it, get to the shimmer, get to Area X. That's what's interesting. So as you don't need all this setup as a film, it's really fucking cool.
SPEAKER_03Your husband's gonna been gone a year and he comes home and he's fucking weird. That's cool to me. That's fine. I don't I don't know. That's a good that's uh more movies. Take that. That's a good first five pages of a script. Sure, sure. Husband's been gone a year, he comes home, that's not my husband. I plenty of movies have stolen that. I think that's the astronaut's wife. You say it out Yeah, exactly. That's that's a ton of movies. Yeah, yeah. But that works. The cutting to the interrogation, that's fucking that's uh that's detective shit. I caught you and I'm interrogating uh oh, you did a crime. I'm not hanging out with a criminal at the beginning of the movie, you're in handcuffs. That's I get that, that's cool. The thing I don't like is when she gets to the base, now I'm with you, where I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, get to the thing. Don't get to the base and hang out at the base with pissed off Jennifer Jason Lee. That's where my brain is like, how do we cut to get there faster? I like the other two setups. Yeah, I love her in the ambulance, and the fucking goon squad government takes that ambulance over. That's cool as hell. So, like a lot of that I like. Yeah, we get to the base, and now I'm bored. Now I feel like I slowed down.
SPEAKER_01It is it it's 10 minutes, that feels like 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_03It does, and that's what I don't like about the first act because I think the first act ends once we get to the shimmer, the cool, weird visuals. Yep. Now we're playing with time and mindfuckery, like all of that's happening now. The only thing I need at the base, you gotta set up no one knows that's your husband, and by choice with agency, and all women teams going in and we're scientists. You could maybe get away with the scientist thing once we're in, but I do think this film is important to show uh women are choosing to go somewhere where maybe five sets of men went and failed. There's something there. Alex is playing with that. That is important. Yeah, that's what sets this film apart from every other film. So I I need that, everything else, get it out of here. I don't want to talk to anybody else at that base. I don't want to look at that base. I don't want to uh uh three minutes at the base or you don't need it, yeah. The base bugs, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01And how much she's talking to the psychologist before it just doesn't, yeah, like and I don't understand the changes between that's one of the nice things about the novels, is it's this is an established thing. It's it's set the novel feels more set in the universe where it's like, oh yeah, Southern Reach has been a thing for the yeah.
SPEAKER_03But that's what you were saying, is like this is a public thing. This is a mystery, exactly, which I don't like.
SPEAKER_01I like the mystery. I don't like it. I like if we're gonna get weird, if we're gonna get into the world, I want this thing to exist. I want this to feel like a real government agency. I don't want it to feel like if Jennifer Jason Lee is the director of the Southern Reach, which is that's what she is, that's what she ends up being. You don't know that in the first novel, but she is the director, whatever, 30 years in, and she's dying, and she chooses to go in, and you find out the reasons why. Uh, it's more than just she's dying, but I like this established thing where it feels like the FBI, it feels like a branch, the CIA, it feels like a branch, a scientific branch of the government. Where in this it feels like it's like, yeah, it's been here for three years, we've sent in a bunch of people, everyone's dead in it. That's still a cool concept. I get no, I I get it. But that's that's coming from the novel, just that's one of the reasons I have the problem. That's one problem I have with that the adaptation of it. It's just like I like the unknown. The thing is unknown enough. I like the idea of an agency responding to something that is unknown, and I like that it would be established for a longer time. That's more interesting to me.
SPEAKER_03Here's my problem. I'm not against you because I agree that's also a really cool thing. Yeah, it's completely different from this. I like both. If you told me that's what this is, and you then did the sci-fi as matter of fact, of like, yeah, we're here. We all know about it. You gotta go in it now. Yeah, yeah. That's also cool. I do like that because you can be normal, you can be able to do it. That's what it is in the book, but it's not what it is. Normal with the absurd, that is a cool idea. Yeah, I like the mystery for the film because I also like, and this is a similar thing he does with uh sunshine, is the women, their roles. I'm like, why would you need a physicist for alien shit? That's cool. Like that that gets you my mind going of like they're they're tackling it, not just ex-military, lesbian that holds the big gun, James Cameron style. You know what I mean? It's not like microbiologist only, like, it's not so simple to add these different types of like a paramedic that makes sense. We're going in, like you're on your own now, you need first aid, blah blah blah. I like that because it adds to the I don't know what I'm walking into, and that's in the novel too. That I think is cool, and it adds with the mystery as a film now. Instead of an adaptation as a film, you like the idea of opening with the tent scene? Would that be a thing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, her just opening what exactly, her dreaming or whatever, and then being like, wait, how long have we been here? That kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And it's I like that, and then you can cut back as the things as things happen and and you learn more about who she is. I like the idea of he is about uncharismatic protagonists. We've talked about this stemming from Josh Jenkins' revelation. I think that's awesome. And the way that it front loads in this first act, she doesn't feel like a protagonist.
SPEAKER_03He's playing the one battle after another score.
SPEAKER_01She doesn't feel like an Alex Garland protagonist. It's very odd. Okay. Where like we learn so much about her and her motivations, she's already been cheating, these kind of things. I mean, I guess it's it's confirmed at the end, but like all we know her husband's gone. No, no, no, no. She's a professor, she's had an affair, these are the things that she's interested in. She's trying to move on from this. Um for a year.
SPEAKER_03He's been gone a year, she's trying to move on. That's not crazy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but we we get all this fucking backstory. Think of ex Machina. We only get a single scene 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_03Nicholas, how well do you emotionally attach to ex Machina?
SPEAKER_01That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm saying she doesn't feel like an Alex Garland protagonist.
SPEAKER_03But would you be more emotionally attached to this film if it opened with more vagary and more mystery?
SPEAKER_01I think it's more interesting now, right? Is that your bag? I think it's more interesting. And then you learn about it as it goes. I like the idea of you are thrown into total mystery. She knows what's going on. See, that's the whole thing. It's not, she doesn't, you're thinking about the time. Oh, it's weird. Why are we here? She knows why she's there. All of four of these women, five of these women know why they are there.
SPEAKER_03And I know.
SPEAKER_01And yes, so they know. So if we opened on that, the audience is the one who is not in the know. The characters do know what's going on. So we use good Alex Garland exposition as it goes on to establish what's going on, and we reveal these personal things and learn about their personalized as the journey goes on. I don't like this front loading shit. He usually doesn't do this. This front loading does not happen in his stuff. It's always to it. X Machin is 30 seconds of him on his computer. And then boom, yeah, we're angry. Yeah, in sunshine, yeah, they're halfway through the fucking mission. In dread, it's oh, I put on my fucking helmet, we're going out to the street. Like, it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And so, like, I don't like this. Okay, it feels very un-Alex Garland-like, and I would it just feels like it would be better suited if it was written more in his style. Because maybe I don't know the instincts of of why he would want to change that, but it's like, and all that stuff, okay. We're I know we're not we're kind of off the adaptation thing, but that's not in the novel. It just fucking starts, it just goes, but that's so that's his emotion, so just fucking do that.
SPEAKER_03As a as a film, I am very curious why he w honestly. It might not be crazy to say he's like, We gotta start with your feet on the ground, yeah, because I know where I'm ending.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I'm gonna slow walk you into some nuts.
SPEAKER_01And he does some fun visual callbacks and stuff like that. Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_03Um that might but I'm saying that might have been his idea of like, I think I wanna be more um what's the word structured, more standard.
SPEAKER_01Sure, but I think that's weak sauce too. And I know that there were, and this is the verte, like there are like uh I know the guy that's like fucking taking over Paramount and who's gonna fucking own Warner Brothers and all this kind of shit. Uh he hated this movie and wanted to get it recut and all this stuff, which he's a fucking piece of shit. So I don't wanna uh side with him.
SPEAKER_03Well, I doubt his uh notes was make it more weird and hard for people to get into a thing.
SPEAKER_01Which that's what I want. Yeah, and I think he should have fucking done it because a little bit I do agree if you're gonna go for it, fucking go for it.
SPEAKER_03But this is this is I think this is.
SPEAKER_01It would be the movie clearly explains what's happening. Oh, all this DNA is just fucking fusing.
SPEAKER_03Like it's not No, I don't think this is the trippiest movie of all time.
SPEAKER_01No, I definitely don't honestly.
SPEAKER_03The trippiest thing is that tenth thing where it's like we don't know how long we've been here. Yeah, that's yeah, we don't remember that's a cool concept. I just I I don't want to argue or fight against what you're saying, but I'm like, I don't know legitimately if you would love if this movie opened fucking nuts. I don't know if you love a movie that's almost kind of hard to get into. I you gotta fight into that.
SPEAKER_01But I love the book, and that's how the book is.
SPEAKER_03This is and that's what I'm saying. It because of the the medium of the.
SPEAKER_01And that's how he usually does it, though. That's that's kind of his MO. He throws you in, he doesn't give you a lot to go off of. He's usually, and I love that stuff. I love being immersed immediately. I I kind of write like that a lot. I mean, we've talked about him being influential in my writing thing.
SPEAKER_03So it's like I like that because I think I think a I think you learn the play with you is I s I like the normal life. Husband comes back weird. I don't think it's crazy to cut the interrogation out, have the husband, the government thing, she wakes up in the tent from that to the tent, then we can cut back to the base later, after through the shimmer, we've established these are our names, these are our jobs. So now, if you go back to the thing of her, like, is he dying? What is this? Now you slow I I get how that would work, and I would be here for that. I I like a little bit of a slow setup with the film because I like the turn it takes when it starts getting weird. If you do the turn too, too, too quick. I I don't know if it works better. It could be weirder and it'd be cooler, I don't know if it makes better because it works in sunshine because I immediately like most of that cast. Yeah, it works in Ex Machina because I like the cast. Yeah, I'm excited over this weird recluse genius, Oscar Isaac, where I'm like, he's already talking weird. I'm so fucking ready for these two guys to hang out.
SPEAKER_01I don't like these characters, and I think that's one of the rude problems with this movie is the characters aren't fleshed out enough. And and I get coming from the book, it's very difficult. The characters don't have names in the book, the characters only have their professions. But then it's like you make it, and he well, that's what I'm saying, and he does make them these broken people, not enough, exactly, exactly, it's half measures.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is my biggest complaint with this film is outside of Tessa Thompson already having self-harm scars on her arms, and then the flowers are growing out of it. Other than that, the concept of what I think he wants to talk about of natural self-destruction and all of the I'm like which that's a fascinating idea. I love that idea. It could be if you made a movie about it. I'm not a hundred percent convinced you did yet. I don't think so. I think you got the closest with Tessa's character. That whole, oh, she has cancer. You said that. Yeah, she's not acting, she doesn't speak to it, it doesn't relate to the world. There's no visual mirror metaphor to this. Like, nowhere do I feel the self-destruction within the people and the idea of like reflection, refraction, uh not entropy, but like I mean, kind of, but like all of this stuff. I feel like we're close, like that stuff's floating around this script. It's just not embedded in this script. It's not embedded in this script. How weird the world is on the natural alien just trying to figure out this world. Of course, that's that's one of my favorite things. That's why I I still love this movie, even though I'm like, this is a fucking mess. Yeah, is because it does some of that stuff. But I'm like, yeah, you didn't line your metaphors up. You didn't line this character represents this and it's shown through the world. You didn't do that.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, you had five shots at it, and you got kind of close to one. Ah, what would you do? Yeah. I don't know what Alex did with this script that makes it feel half done, half measures. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's it's this, it's I mean, a lot of it comes down to character motivation. It's it's wanting to add this layer of self-destruction because it I I get the idea of like, why would human beings go into this world? Why would they step into this shimmer, this area X when all these bad things had happened, right? But in the novel, they are scientists and they are wanting to study it, and it has been a phenomenon for 30 years, and they don't know what has happened to the other expeditions. Yeah, they just know they're the 12th, they don't know what happened to the other guys. And but you find out that in the 11th, her husband was in it. You've learned that as it goes, and that he showed up doppelgangers, blah blah blah. But in this, it's oh, this is dangerous. All the other people who have gone in there have died. But we're gonna go in there, and to justify that, it means that we are self-destructive, so we have to build that into it. So it's just like this weird convoluted thing where you lose the original motivations of this is a scientific interest thing. This is I'm not necessarily ex-military.
SPEAKER_03Well, I still feel that. I still get that, and that's what I mean about the agency is like they're excited to go, they're choosing to go.
SPEAKER_01But I don't know why a lot of I mean, I know that that's their professions and that maybe they're being paid. This is some black ops government thing, but like Natalie Portman is going in there because she wants to. Find something. What happened to her husband? She feels guilty because she cheated on her husband, so it's like I'm gonna lean towards self-destruction because I did it to my relationship.
SPEAKER_03See, and this is this is my problem is I know what you're doing right now because I think this is what we're supposed to be doing. Is uh saying that these things line up, I don't think they line up.
SPEAKER_01No, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03I don't think she's in there because she cheated. I think she went into the shimmer to go, that ain't my husband. I think he's still in there. I need to find out either is he there or what happened to him.
SPEAKER_01And if there was a hint of that, I would I would it would be a better movie.
SPEAKER_03But there's nothing that was mine, and then when you find out she was cheating, that's where it goes, okay. So we're talking about humanity self-destruction and how we take that as a negative act on ourselves when in nature, when these sort of things happen, it's it's uh, I mean, it comes back to our argument of indifference of nature, of like it's beautiful that one flower vine has eight different flowers on it. It's also scary, but like it nature decays and it rots and it kills and it blooms from that, and this is just a process in this whatever alien thing. It's not trying to hide in plain sight, it's not trying to take over the globe. The only thing it can do is what's near me, and to learn if I touch it, and if I touch it, I become it. Yeah, and now I know that's a flower, that's this, that's that like that's a fascinating concept that he's saying, like, we as humans, self-destruction and decay and self-harm, that's these are human characteristics that are negative to us. This shit just happens in nature, yeah, and you're about to come across nature that doesn't conceive of these things the same way as you do, and it's utterly terrifying. Yeah, because you have no choice here, yeah. But what you're doing is what I think we should, and what the script should is no, it's the guilt of the self-destruction. She's self-harmed, she's on a suicide run because she has cancer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So then we should posit all of these people. Shepard, what is hers? Why is she here? What's her suicide self-destruction? What's Gina's?
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03That's where I go.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she's sober. Okay. Okay. Or whatever.
SPEAKER_03That's that's one of those things of like that could be fascinating. That's another part of this whole like growth of like you did kill yourself and you're trying a rebirth. Make her a Christian sober, like make her a 12-stepper, like uh a power higher than yourself. Again, this uh I don't want to be that guy, is like this movie's a whole lot more interesting if you bring one fucking Christian on. You know what I mean? Like, you start talking about God with all of this, this movie gets more interesting. But like you have the cancer suicide run, you have uh, I mean, I guess at the end you find out she self-harms, and then Natalie Portman's a cheater. The other two don't line up with this, and none of this has anything to do with the bear, the alligator, or the the alien itself. Yep. So it's like I think we should be trying to line this stuff up. I don't think the script did.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_03And that's my biggest you sure you wrote this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know exactly.
SPEAKER_03It doesn't you for real? Like you wrote this?
SPEAKER_01And like that's what it that was one of my bigger takeaways is it doesn't feel like an Alex Garland movie. It feels like, and I mean it does, but it feels sloppy. It feels like a soft movie.
SPEAKER_03It feels real sloppy. Yeah, it's just it feels uh it feels like a bonnet or something.
SPEAKER_01It just feels like, oh, I these couple things, this is what I was interested in in these five years, and they just didn't quite line up.
SPEAKER_03And none of it's the from the book. All the things we're talking about aren't like well, he was trying to force the book on. He's cool walking away from the book, and none of this is last of us. Last of us is because it's in the south with uh green vegetation and just saying production design, that's what I'm saying, sound design, I'm agreeing with you is like the last of us is the aesthetic, it's not the characters, it's not the metaphors. My biggest what the fuck is when they are in the the room and they see the pool and there's the the the hard drive. Uh SD card the memory the SD card out loud memory card. I bet you it'll fit in this camera and we can see what's gonna happen. I was like, how did Alex the guy that just got done writing ex machina? Yeah, wetware, yeah, he wrote that dialogue of I'm showing it, I'm saying it out loud, and telling you while I'm doing it, I was like, What the fuck, dude? These are scientist grown ass women in a smart movie from you. You had to make her say out loud, I'm gonna put this in the camera, and then we're gonna watch what's I was like, no, what? Yeah, no dialogue. I think I think we're about to find out what happened, and then it drops.
SPEAKER_01And then Jana yelling yelling about it's a trick of a light. It's like, wait, how aren't you guys scientists? Like, what the you're the motivation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get you're doing the delusion. I don't want to believe what I just saw because it breaks my whole thing because I know it says anything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's so annoying.
SPEAKER_03I fucking I was like, Alex, what happened in this room? But then again, you know what happened in that room? And fuck you for the last of us. The last of us stole from this movie, if you ask me. That body on the wall from the belly button, splayed out 12 feet in the air, jaw dislocated, and the way he films it from afar, where it's too far to fully see it, yeah, and then it's a slow pan down it, dude. Like And the knife is still there. Yeah, it's so fucking this is my like this is really Scott did like truckers in space, and it's like clicky buttons. Oh, he did a Meso American pyramid in a future with an Atari Billboard. Like, this is sci-fi visual that fucks with my brain, whereas like I I want to look at that for five hours.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like that is like my imagination of what that looks like happening, yeah. And people watching that, like my brain goes, that's a two-hour movie I would watch.
SPEAKER_01It's Elden Ring shit.
SPEAKER_03That's what I'm saying. Is like this is where we come into the this is beyond my comprehension, but I want to comprehend. This is there's a thing we didn't say in the sunshine episode that I thought and I couldn't get it in without forcing it, is I'm living in that fucking sunroom.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Without a doubt. I'm staring at it. I'm yeah, I'm fucking Tim Robinson on the zip line on the dating show. Like I'm eating as fast as I can to go to the room every day. Yeah. I'm living that room. I'm living this. I'm trying to just take it in. Take it in. Yeah, yeah. And this movie gives me those things of like for plants to grow in the shape of a human. Yeah. Because it's had human DNA. And it's just it, we're here now. It's mixed now. Yeah. That is that's a beautiful concept to me. Cool, eerie, beautiful ideas. No one's done that. No movies. That's just that's in this only. Yeah. And so, like, we're not getting to the we're not getting to there, and we're not getting to the bear yet. We got we're gonna do 40 minutes on the bear. We're going extra long on the bear. I'm just kidding. But like, this movie does those things where I'm just like, motherfucker, if I had more of that, this is the greatest movie of all time. I uh don't give them names. I don't care what their names are if you're giving me more of that. The alligator's kind of cool. Bunch of teeth, it's okay. That's a cool mystery of like what are we dealing with? It is cool. Sure. It's good enough. That's also why it's the first one. Yeah, it's a good tease. Exactly. It's like, oh, things are mutating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everything progresses very well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, the bear, highly disturbing. Love it. Fucking love it.
SPEAKER_03Uh this is this is my uh that's the uncanny valley. Yeah, I've never in my life actually had the experience in a film watching something that actually unsettled me. Oh, yeah, because my this is literally, this is me staring at the sun. I couldn't comprehend, like my brain, I know it's a movie, I know it's fake, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But for the noise to come out of that shape, really, like legitimately, my wires got crossed where I was like, I'm kind of getting nauseous. Oh, yeah, where my body goes in animal mode of like that's not normal.
SPEAKER_01And I remember when it cuts the POV shot and it's dead on. Yeah, I remember in the theater like jumping and getting the chills. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03It's like I had a physical reaction that my brain is for the first time, maybe ever in a film, coming across that veil of like, that's not normal. Yep. And it's because it's minimal CG, and it feels practical and it feels simple.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's that juxtaposition. It's yeah, it's alive, it's dead, it's almost a skull face, and it has a human voice coming out of it. It's like a brain couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my brain literally couldn't do it all, and it did fucking wig out and have to reboot looking at that. Yeah, and it still works. Oh, yeah. Even watching this, this is like the fourth or fifth time I watched this movie, it still works.
SPEAKER_01Just that scream. It's so fun. Yeah, it's like it's one of the most unsettling.
SPEAKER_03It's yeah, I will say, and this isn't hyperbole, this is me not being able to think of another example. This is the most disturbing thing I've seen in a movie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's top five for sure for me as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And it's also that thing of like, I I I can't stop wanting to solve that puzzle, yeah, and not be disturbed by it. Yeah, and that's what this movie does. That's what sunshine with the sun, that's uh so much of what he's been dealing with, the incomprehensible. Yeah, this movie. I mean, we get to the lighthouse and there's glass on the beach and the shimmer on the sand and the water, uh, crystal trees, and then the the splay out from the whole, like there's so much going on in a design. Also, because it's a lighthouse, it's minimal. Yeah, there's no color here, it's sand to the wall. Yeah, like all of that is really, really tickling that part of my brain. Yeah. That's one of my favorite things anything does. Yeah. Like, I don't know what that is. Yeah. I don't know what that is. Yeah. Is that alive? Is that the alien? I guess. Is that the thing that fell? I guess. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't need to know.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_03Alex doesn't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Ally Portman didn't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it comes out of the psychologist and becomes this blooming thing, takes her blood, turns into her. It's it makes sense. The steps of metamorphosis and all this kind of evolution. And I didn't need exposition, I didn't need her to draw a diagram. Yeah, it's so fun.
SPEAKER_03We never got that scene.
SPEAKER_01And the score. Score is iconic. So fucking weird, so fucking cool. Yeah, and yeah, I just remember that blasting in theaters and just being like, fuck yeah, this is wonderful. I've never been here before. Yeah, yeah. I've never been in this room before. That's the that's why this movie's so fucking frustrating to me. Is because there are high highs, and to me, the rest of it is it's it's it's doo-doo, baby. It doesn't feel like him. Exactly. It's these he's got these fascinating ideas, but it feels like he's got nothing to say with them. It's not honed enough. It is and it for it to take four years for him to kind of put this together. I just wonder how he feels about it now. You know what I mean? Like, I wonder if he feels that it's messy. Does he feel like he hit the mark with it? Yeah, because it has some iconic shit in it. The bear is iconic, the fucking alien is like iconic, the soundtrack at that moment is iconic. But the flower stuff. But after that, like it's it just it's that's a nothing burger, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03And this is this is the movie, and I said this in the previous episode, but this is the movie that made me think of this as like this is this is Jeff Nichols' midnight special. Jeff Nichols is very open when he speaks of Midnight Special, which I think is a great movie, it's not his best, but he goes, I was playing with pulling out exposition and getting it out, and I wanted to see how minimal of things I can go. And he's very admittedly said, I think I pulled too much. I think I needed to give a little bit more. It's too reserved, it's too flat and cold, and it's a lesser project because of it. And he learned a hard lesson there. This feels like I've I need to hear Alex talk about how does he rank this film? I've heard him talk about making it, I've heard him talk about the ideas and the book and all of that, but I haven't heard him be critical of it and go, uh yeah. Messy first act. There's like four things in there. I could have done two, and yeah, uh, I didn't know my characters and my metaphors. I would he feel that way, or did he not want to? Or does he see this of like he just seems like the guy who's like, I did it, I'm done with it. That's how he seems again.
SPEAKER_01It goes back to that fuck you. Exactly. Yeah, it's like yeah, I did it there.
SPEAKER_03I said what I wanted to say, or I tried to say, and because this is also like uh when I hear him speak of the film, he doesn't speak a character, he speaks of I wanted to make you feel like how I felt when I read it, which is like I have no idea what the fuck's going on. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And for how tight of a writer he is, it just doesn't work. It doesn't mesh. It's it's competing with how messy it is and with how skilled he is. The two it's like this it's two opposite ends of a magnet trying to push together and it just doesn't come together.
SPEAKER_03Dave Dave kind of called it as like I think any movie after X Machina was gonna feel like a sophomore slump.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I mean that's fair.
SPEAKER_03I think that's fair. It would have because X Machina kind of sort of feels perfect, even though it it's not my favorite. Yeah, I can understand how for modern sci-fi. It's very tight. It's exactly everything was thought through from the the camera to the everything. Everything. That's not this film. No, we can't sit here and break down the visual where the camera is placed is telling the story. We can't do that because I don't think he did that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I also, this is his first real honest attempt as a director to go into the unknown. He didn't nail it all the way. Yeah, I've seen Princess Mononoki and I've played Pokemon XY. So a deer with flower antlers, yeah, yeah. That doesn't blow my mind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The flowers all being the same but different is cool. I don't know if this is blasphemy or not, but I don't know, man. Uh I saw Willy Wonka.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like, so like I I've I've seen a guy pick up a tulip and eat it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So like some of this stuff didn't blow my mind. The bear fucking wrecked me, and the end thing does, but not all of this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so it's not as weird as it proposed as it kind of postures its positions itself to be.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And when people uh there's just look up Annihilation on YouTube, half the videos are gonna be ending explained. I'm like, what do you need explained? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01It's very straight, it's pretty straightforward, honestly.
SPEAKER_03It's I mean it's just cool. But what's the I don't get it like other than the things that he clearly he's like, I didn't tell you the history of the alien and I didn't give it a name and I didn't tell you how the science works, but like it's pretty kind of obvious what happens. Yeah, because I showed it to you. There's no trickery there. Exactly. It's like, well, her eyes shimmer. It's like she also already looked at her DNA blending house.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And she's like, Oh, it's in us. Yeah, it's already in us.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_03The flowers are growing out of Tessa Thompson's hand. Yeah, like we already got there.
SPEAKER_01The he she already says it. It's uh it's yeah, it's a refraction of DNA, everything. It refracts everything.
SPEAKER_03This is all mixed, yeah. So uh yeah, when we get to the end, the eyes glitch and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, the shimmer's gone, that one alien's gone, but it's in all of you guys now. So I I don't know. It I don't get the this this movie. Definitely isn't like the most uncanny, never it has those moments. The whole shimmer's not like that. That's what's interesting to me for Alex is I think this is more of a directing movie, less of a screenwriter movie. Yeah, because he pushed himself. This is action, this is more tension, this is straight up fucking horror, yeah, body horror. They cut the dude open, yeah, which we talked about it. That's some bone temple shit.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03You know what I mean? Like this this feels like this is Alex as a director flexing a lot of muscles. True, true, true. Because um, spoiler alert, if you want to talk about Uncanny Valley and going into the unknown, let's have an actual legitimate argument of did he do it better in men? Yeah, for your client. We'll talk about it for your client. We'll talk about it for sure. Of like, I had never seen this before. Yeah, that's right. And I can't wrap my head around what the hell's going on visually. So this feels this feels more of him f stretching out as a director and he backslid on the writing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if he loves being a writer and a director at the exact same time, or did he just have to?
SPEAKER_01And yeah, how is it will it compare to Dev's, which I mean, when you move to TV, it's all about writing. And yes, he directs every episode, but the focus is the first one. I think he does. I believe he does, but it's not necessarily as visually propelled or or embedded uh this the directoral style. I don't know, we'll we'll have to see. It's gonna be a fascinating turn, but I like that you say that where it feels like he's pushing more as a director and he's not as successful because I don't think the actors are directed well necessarily. Yeah. It's not and it's messier. So if the foundation isn't there, the screenplay, then that ultimate directing isn't gonna work to necessarily fix it, which is very obvious, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh we always end the season and we'll rank all as stuff. Yeah, but this kind of says a lot without having to go through the full ranking. What do you like more as a film? This or 28 Days Later?
SPEAKER_01And I usually do tier rankings, they'll be on the same tier. Okay, I think it says a lot. I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. But this has been my least favorite movie, watching them. And it because I was thinking about 28 Days Later as well. That's why I asked. I enjoyed watching 28 Days Later more than watching this. Uh watching this again, I was just like, nah, yep, you know. But I like I said, I I feel at ease. I feel like I've I'm now comfortable with this film because it it makes more sense to me of where he's coming from and where he was at. And it's just so different. So it's like it's okay. There's really cool shit in it, but it's it's very messy.
SPEAKER_03It's a legitimate mess, but the things it gives me. Yeah, I I whether I uh even things I don't want to keep thinking about, I'm stuck thinking about with this film. Yeah. And the fact that some of this is stuck and lasted with me, I'm like, I can't say I don't like it. Yeah, for sure. There's stuff I legitimately don't like about it, yeah, but the highs are some of the highest for what this is for horror sci-fi and for the uh unimaginable type of shit. Like it is kind of on its own with all of that when it comes to film, but yeah, then it's it's not a good script, I don't think. I can legitimately say I don't think it's a good script. No, which is crazy for me to say Alex Garland has a bad script. Yeah, I didn't think I would say that. Yeah, that's his first dot. Specifically as the script. I'm like, nah, man, that's you didn't do it. Yeah, it's not it's not there enough, it just doesn't work, but a lot of it works for me. A lot of it works really does work. A lot of cool shit.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I'm excited to go into devs after this because we kind of it took a little bit of a dip, and I've only seen devs once, you've only seen devs once. Yeah. Uh we're gonna hopefully have some guests for it. And yeah, this is an interesting framing device, of a quote unquote slump movie with these amazing elements, uh, but a weak script. And I remember there being some bumps with devs, but there's also some like fuck cool ideas. Speaking of cool ideas, like a couple things in a devs that I still think about a lot where I'm just like, oh shit. This is some fucking neat stuff.
SPEAKER_03Maybe because it goes back to hard sci fi. Yeah. And by hard, I know I'm not using these terms right, but it's more about the actual like mechanics of things. Well, I think it's about technology. That's what That's what I was trying to say. Right, something like that. He goes back to that, which he does really good with tech. Yeah. Sunshine is really good. Ex Machina is really good. Yeah. Because he he talks of that world very well. Yeah. So maybe devs will hit because he's back there. Or eight hours of Alex Garland is six hours too much, maybe. Yeah, exactly. Who knows?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Maybe we get into this and we're just like, I don't know, man. You're too dry and uncharismatic to do eight full fucking hours kind of techno babble.
SPEAKER_01Charismatic protagonists carry a uh series. That's the question we're gonna be asking. And we already kind of know the answer a little bit, but uh yeah, it's gonna be fascinating. I am excited. Uh that's streaming on Hulu uh for for everyone out there. You mean Disney Plus, whatever, Disney Plus Hulu, wherever it's out there. So yeah, follow along for the next eight weeks. We'll have some guests on uh before we get back to his movie work. So yeah, should be a fun little shift here in the middle of the year.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, do a little mini series.
SPEAKER_01We've never done that. Nope. Switch it up. Yeah, so and we'll be doing one episode of the show per episode of the podcast. So next week we'll be covering episode one of Devs. I love you. I love you too.