SPEAKER_05 0:00

Hello and welcome to I'm Your Buddy with Nick and William, a podcast where two best friends are watching and discussing the filmography of writer director Alex Garland. I'm William, the one who loves Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

And I'm Nick who also loves Alex Garland. You started off so fucking bummed.

unknown 0:17

Did I?

SPEAKER_05 0:18

I sounded sad. Yeah, but never let them guess your next move. What if I'm happy today? So what are we watching today? Spoiler alert, not.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

What are we watching today and who do we have here with us? Who we have here with us is You answered the second question before the first one.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

Because uh you're not my boss, that's why. Because you're you're not uh my god. I do what I want to do. There you go. When I want to do it. Dave Jordan's here, and he's gonna hear me do it how I want to do it. Good. Hi Dave. Hey guys, hey buddy.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

Uh so I was thinking on the way over.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

We're talking about 2015's Ex Machina, his first uh full official directorial debut. Right.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

Also written by but before we get into that, more importantly, have I been on more times than Josh Jenkins, or are we tied?

SPEAKER_05 1:06

That is a good question. I would have to go back. My brain wants to say he's done more because Evangelian.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Right. Evangelion, yeah. So this is my fourth time, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yeah, so he might have just hit five, maybe. Because he did how many Evangelian episodes? Two or three. He did two in the body, the show, the main show, and then he did the finale, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

With Dan. And then he did one. Oh, so he's on five because he did one Michael Mann and then one Alex Garland. Yes. All right, I gotta go on again.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which I don't even know if he's coming back on for anything else. Wait, he did uh the rehearsal too, didn't he? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

No, he's he's really he came on twice for the rehearsal. Did he?

SPEAKER_05 1:51

I think he has, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Five. I forgot he did the rehearsal. Yeah, that's true. Damn. I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

That's all right. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

You guys gotta do something that Josh is not interested in. Yeah. That I am interested in.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah, we'll we'll find a TV show or something like that, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

So, Dave, the next time we do an album review, are you gonna make Nick do like a judge album or something? Something only you know and love.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

I mean, you know, if you guys want to have me on for an episode like that, I would do a music episode. Pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

I would like that a lot. Yeah, yeah. Why not? It'd be a fun one to have on for music.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Yeah, if we're gonna you guys could do a whole series about a band discography.

SPEAKER_05 2:28

We've discussed it, and the band that we always discuss, I think you would enjoy that a lot. No, slip knot. Because me and Nick only know songs. I've I've I don't even know songs. Really? I thought you were uh big uh knothead or whatever they call their fans.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

No, so the thing, the interesting thing about bands like that is that the slip nuts is that I'm slip nuts?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Fuck yes, it is.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

No, no, no. So like this is the thing that's come up actually in in reference to Nick and I's friend Andy, who is like your guys' age, he's a big new metal fan. No knockers, but I'm you know, just old enough, older enough, that I was too old for New Metal. You missed it, yeah. Yeah, so like you know, when New Metal came out, I was listening to what most people would consider more traditional metal, you know. So striper. Yeah, striper, warrant, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Um yeah, the the the late 90s.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Yeah, so so and I was already listening to like hardcore and like pretty extreme stuff. Yeah. So things like Slipknot and Limpiscuit and all that whole crew of great metal bands, even the Limpiscuit and uh Transcender the genre, you're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Um Yeah, it was it was well, it was pop music too back then.

SPEAKER_04 3:52

Yeah, yeah. I it's just like that's not where I was, so I just missed all that. So like I've certainly heard Slipknot, but like I've I've never sat down and listened to a same with us. Never we could maybe name this radio four songs, yeah. I I I would expect that that wouldn't be a very interesting band to go deep diving on with this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

That is the idea, I think. You know what I mean? I forgot that we talked about it.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Ted would be a really good person to have on, though.

SPEAKER_05 4:18

Yeah, we want to do that. Yeah, I really want uh Ted and uh Mike Sanchez on. I know we're gonna get Mike on to just talk about Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

It's just a sweet boy.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

That's a good call. That's a good if we if we ever do Sam Raimi, that would be funny. Yeah. Because we've talked about Sam Raimi.

SPEAKER_05 4:35

Oh, I thought Nick said Mike didn't like Spider-Man, and Nick's the one in the group that likes Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Only Nick trying to trigger Mike Sanchez, not Spider-Man like. Um but yeah, we are gonna do a music rap episode with him later this year.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

But yeah, I I think it's it's not even like a rite of passage. It's if you hang out with Mike Sanchez for 10 minutes, you will see him cry about Spider-Man. That's true. Like literally, like tear up just thinking about Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

It's true, just looks off in the distance. He'll just be like, oh man, don't get watery eyes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

He's just trying to keep it together.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

I can like I can picture his face doing it right now. Does it every time?

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:15

Or it's love, responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

You just can't. And I don't even know. We've only we only usually talk about Mike Sanchez in reference to him loving rap because him and William have a shared love of the genre. But yeah, I don't think we've ever mentioned that he loves Spider-Man as much as he does until today.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

This is the first time I knew this.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Yeah, I've never heard of that. Spider-Man more than almost every person.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, he's that was one of the first things when our comic shouting group got together, whatever fucking 15 years ago, or whatever, how old how long ago it was now. But uh, that was one of the first things I remember Mike Sanchez making an impression on me about. Is he said, like, I love Gwen Stacy more than most real people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, which is true, yeah, you know, at all. I get that. But I remember that being like, now that's my kind of hyperbole. There we go. That's this is my guy right here. Yeah. He speaks my language.

SPEAKER_05 6:05

That's a very Nicki B thing to say for sure.

SPEAKER_04 6:07

He would be a really interesting person to have on, just in general. I mean, just because like he is very articulate, he's very intelligent, and he is a person that puts a lot of thought into his opinions, but will also fully admit sometimes that his opinions are totally irrational.

SPEAKER_05 6:24

That's why he's not on. We don't do that, we don't think that much about anything we say.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah, he's completely driven by emotion, and he's just like me where he gets hot really fucking quick. It's great. I love it. Yeah, it's great. So that's why I really wanted to talk rap because I want you to be yelled at about something that you love.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

I know. You you you you need chaos for some reason directed towards me, which I don't know if you want to get into it, but you got a fucking attitude with me today. You need to fucking chill. What do you mean? I don't know. You were tickling my leg earlier. I was confused. That's uh cute sweet nothings. Also, off mic, by the way. What did I say bringing our business on the thing? Me tickling your leg. That was for you, and maybe if Dave's watching. That's not for the audience. Well, when was I spicy? Ah, you got an attitude. I don't know. You're cranky today. I'm it's it's early. I'm tired of it. I don't know. I had to stay up till 11 to watch this movie last night. So I forgot we were doing this, and I I I watched uh two back to back in the wrong order for what we're doing. Yeah, yeah. I got thrown off real quick though, before we get into anything, Nicholas. I need you to do me something. Okay. I need you to promote your comic website. It doesn't matter. Please keep going. Keep going.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, of course, yeah. And I have been, you know, every week. And this is but this is coming out.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

Yeah, I guess unless this will come out after the Kickstarter campaign.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Terminator timeline. Hold on, let me think. So this is next.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

I did donate to the campaign. No, I appreciate that. So if if people are listening and this comes out before the end of the campaign, donate to the campaign. Is it the comic looks super cool? Like, I'm pumped on it. I'm really proud of it. I appreciate that. Thank you. No, like honestly for being somebody that like has talked about trying to put out something creative for almost as long as I've known you.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Besides your short film that you put out when you were in film school. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm really proud of you for like getting to the point where even if the Kickstarter is not successful, it will be, I probably the fact that you've gotten it to this point is is commendable. You've gotten way farther than a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

And I appreciate that. And uh, we're learning a lot of lessons for this first campaign, which will be successful. It's very exciting. Yeah, yeah. This this actually is coming.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

It looks great. Like you know, the pages so far that you've posted, like they they all look fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah, Risio's killing it, and yeah, and as the pages that are even past the preview are so fucking good. Um, hopefully he's feeling better by the time this comes out. He fucking threw out his back, even though he's 23 years old. But uh, yes, thank you for your support, both of you. Really appreciate it. So, yeah, go to the campaign, Redeemercomic.com. It's Metroid Meets Firefly, you know, fun sci-fi world building shit. And yeah, we're it it's as stressful as running the campaign has been and like learning about marketing and all this kind of shit. It's very informative to see the data that comes in, see what your expectations are about you know how you want to run something and then the how the general public perceives it. It's very cool. So like it's actually really good where it's gonna help us with the second campaign a fuck ton. So, and I'm glad that I'm in a stable enough emotional state. Because like if I did this 10 years ago, it's I would have just burned it to the ground. But now I'm older and wiser, and I'm just like, don't focus on the stressful shit of it, just be like, oh yeah, this uh I'm learning a lot.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Kickstarter is kind of tough now, too. I mean, like there was a period of time, probably about like 10 years ago, where that was like the move. Yeah. And a lot of projects were getting funded, and I think unfortunately, just by nature of I don't know, people, there's there were too many campaigns that got a lot of money that never came to fruition. Yeah, yeah. And that kind of soured a lot of people on it. Yeah. To the point where it's like, yeah, there's still kind of diehard people that are still willing to like support campaigns and certainly support campaigns by their friends and everything, but the days of getting like, you know, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for a comic project or something is gone because there's been way too many.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Yeah, they just get burned.

SPEAKER_04 10:38

And then like the products never came out, the books never came out, the whatever they were, you know. And that's kind of part of the risk, you know. It's but like I think that really did sour a lot of people to it over the years. And then, you know, things like bigger companies taking advantage of it as like a promotional tool when they don't really need the money.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Yeah, they use it as a promo tool to fund like hardcover collections and stuff. Which hey, IDW, if you want a new property to publish, uh I got one called Redeemer. So please help us out, and you can kickstart it yourself and so we don't have to do it. But yes, I I I completely agree. So, yes, thank you for bringing that up, William. Go kickstart Redeemer part one on Kickstarter, please.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

Say the website one more time, clean. Redeemercomic.com.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

You can also just go to Kickstarter and search Redeemer.com. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

It'll pop up. So, yes, pitch out of the way.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Nice. Uh how are you boys?

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Very busy. Yeah, yes, yeah. Very busy.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

We talked about it a little bit before uh we started recording, Dave. But how is the pedal business going?

SPEAKER_04 11:40

It's going very well. That's a guitar pedal for other people that know, not a bike pedal. If you are unfamiliar with who I am and haven't listened to any of the other episodes I've been on, I yeah, I run a uh guitar effects pedal business, I guess it's not exclusively guitar, which is um continues to grow and do well, which astounds me every day. Hell yeah, super sick. Yeah, I uh this year especially. I mean, even in just the past month and change, I've almost doubled the amount of dealers I had from previous years, which is pretty crazy. Um yeah, how many are you up to now?

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Do you know? Is it a dozen by now or something like that?

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Yeah, um, I think I'm 13 bakers, 14 maybe. I'd have to check the spreadsheet. So yeah, it's um and still a one-man pedal operation. Yeah, yeah, which is pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

I'm making it work, it's going well. Hell yeah. Do you just send them out in batches? Like, I'm just thinking logistically. So you're like a dealer is like, hey, we would like to have your product. Can we order this many, or do you offer them like, here, I'll send you three of these, two of those, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04 12:49

I leave it up to them. Okay. Um, because you know, not to talk shop if you don't want to. Yeah, no, no, no. I trust the dealers to know their audience and their customers, right? So if they think one product I make is gonna be more suited to the people that shop there, then and they want to order more of those, great. If they don't, like they're under no obligation to carry the whole line. Yeah. In some cases, they I've had a few that are like, well, what would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:18

Um, you know, and I'll kind of give them a rundown of like the slow loris is my biggest seller, it probably always will be. And then there's these ones that kind of come in below it, so you know, those are pretty popular. You might want more of those or not, like, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just kind of leave it up to them. That's what's worked for me so far.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Uh I I try to not really worry about like minimum orders and stuff like that because I don't really have to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

You know, oh just send them what they want and then they can it's up to that.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Yeah, yeah, that's cool. I like that. A little bit of collaboration with them.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Yeah, and in in some cases, I've gotten to do like actual kind of collaborations where I'll do like an exclusive for a store. Yeah, I just did a batch for my dealer in Japan. Sick of uh I did five slowers and five robins pedals that instead of the normal paint jobs, they're all this kind of like royal blue because that's the store logo color. Oh, that's cool. So it's like the the Gizmo music exclusive colorway that I did for them. Yeah, and stuff like that is always really fun because it's like, I mean, I've made over 700 slow lorises at this point. Yeah. So like any opportunity I get to like change it out. Some that are like a little bit different, yeah, that's just like kind of fun. Oh, yeah. In one way, you know, that like and also like I don't know, I don't have the capability to run a totally like available custom shop for the general public.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:49

So when I get the opportunity to like do something special with one of my dealers too. Yeah. That like I was I always like to jump on that.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Hell yeah. Well, and you buried the lead. Do you have a fucking dealer in Japan? How fucking cool is it?

SPEAKER_04 15:02

International, baby. I've had my second dealer was in Australia.

SPEAKER_05 15:08

Nick, you thought the Japan thing was a big deal, and he was gonna go, yeah, it's crazy. He goes, actually, it's not that crazy. I started international.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

I started with a British penal colony filled with crazy people, yeah. No big deal.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

Yeah, I mean, sorry, like discouraging. I've had a dealer in in Australia for a long time. The Japanese guys were pretty early. I have a dealer in Germany, I have a dealer in the Netherlands, I have a dealer in the UK now. Sh um Canada. Canada, Canada's a big one. New Jersey, Nashville, Connecticut, coupling, California. Damn, dude. That's sick. Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Literally, yeah. At just as many places abroad as at home. That's cool. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, and I really all I see I had just have a stereotype of an Australian person getting one of your pedals, and all they want is like the fuzz.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

All they want's the distortion. Like they don't give a fuck about anything else. Like they just wanted as gross sounding as possible. Just because they're Australian. Exactly. That's the stereotype in my head. Because it just fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Yeah, no, the uh yeah, the Australia guys, they've they've always been really great. Like I said, they came on really early. Um, they've been great to work with. Sick. Um, I've gotten to meet them and hang out with them a couple times. Really great guys.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

So that's a good that's a question I want to ask you because we were talking about for those who want to hear the fascinating behind the scenes things of I'm your buddy, is we're actually this is the first time where we are recording an episode out of order. Yes. So we're recording as you're listening to X Machina. Yes, you know that. But we have recorded that before Dread uh with John Morgan, which we're recording tomorrow, which you are here first. But it's because uh John Morgan's going out of town on vacation, or I think he's getting back from vacation, and Dave is going to a pedal show. Yes. Um, but that's stateside. Are you do you have any plans to go to any international shows, or have you already been to an international show?

SPEAKER_04 17:08

I haven't. I don't have any plans to at the moment. My passport's expired too, so yeah, you'd have to get it renewed. I I probably would. I mean, but you probably can't now.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

I think they check your voter record, so you probably won't be able to leave the country anymore. What does that mean you you have to vote to get a passport? No, they'll see that he's voted liberal in the past and not denying a liberal Nick.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

Did you know you have a liberal in your house now?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, no, yeah. Sorry, Dave. No, I we have to balance it out with MAGA Williams.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

I typically vote blue. But yeah, I mean, with all that that stuff is kind of like if I get invited to do it, and I can, I will. I mean, like, I haven't gotten invited to go out of the country yet.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

It seems like Europe would have a lot of that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, Germany or something, you know, they would have some conventions or something.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

They there's like one really big one in Europe that happens. I think it's in May. I think it's in the beginning of May. And then there's like my dealer in Australia puts one on that actually just happened. And then there's like a pretty big one in Japan too.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Which yeah, flying to both of those countries is crazy, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of the thing, is like it Germany wouldn't be so bad. You could do that pretty cheaply, actually. You think so? Yeah, I don't know. I've never looked into it. Yeah, flying to Europe isn't I mean, now it's more expensive, but you could definitely do it for a grand or something like that. Where flying like halfway across the world, those tickets are yeah, uh, you know, three thousand bucks, something like that.

SPEAKER_04 18:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, stateside it's pretty easy.

unknown 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

You know, fly out somewhere for a couple days, get an Airbnb, get a hotel, whatever, yeah, split it with some friends. But yeah, doing the international thing, I think would start to become more of like, is it worth it? That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah, it'd be more of an experience, like if you if you could go on vacation at the same time or something, you know. I've had a great idea.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

A bunch of friends go and do the Japan one and they they love it. And I would love to. But uh I also, you know, I have not travel anxiety, but I have like uh how should I even describe this? I have like foreign country food anxiety. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, in that like don't want to blow up your guts.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:21

So, you know, for the listeners, I'm a vegetarian, I've been a vegetarian for Yeah, we heard you vote blue. We heard you almost 30 years now. Yeah, yeah. Um so I definitely have anxiety about being in a place that isn't English speaking and being able to convey that to people.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, just not just have to fucking eat snacks or whatever. Carbs, like only carbs, only chest, chess, rice, chest.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

You know, in a place like you know, Tokyo or whatever, everybody's gonna understand English.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

But yeah, that's been a thing for me in the past.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

But in Germany, yeah, it's all meat and sausages and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

I had a a friend I think you get beat up in Australia for being a vegetarian, so yeah, you may not want to go. I had a friend that went to I think Paris for a comic show or something, and she was vegan, and she was like, I couldn't eat anything. No, because butter is in everything. Butter and cream isn't everything.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's tough going out.

SPEAKER_04 20:19

Now, that's obviously not an issue for me. I'm not vegan, but like, you know, I have that. Certainly going to like Asia, the idea of like fish sauces and a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

No, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Whether or not, you know, I mean, I run into it here a little bit where it's like, I'll ask if like green or red chili is vegetarian. Yeah, as well. Yeah. Oh, it's vegetarian, it just has chicken stock in it. Yeah, yeah. Or lard and tortillas or something. Nope. That's not how that works.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah, for sure. It's definitely a challenge. And and I hear via Instagram that you're showcasing a new pedal uh that might be comic book inspired at this next show.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

Oh, yeah. So oh, there needs to be a fair amount of context for this. Um so yes, my friend uh in Richmond is throwing an event on March 14th, which is pie day. Yes. There's a very classic fuzz pedal called the Big Muff Pie. Yes. Right? Yes. Which is Yeah, no, it no, it is gross. It's been around since the 60s, different times.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Next slick and I love me a big muff.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Um but so for that event, a whole bunch of us are doing for that event, a whole bunch of us are doing uh like limited, not one off, but very limited pedals, like just for the event that are big muff derivatives.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Gotcha, gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

So I am I'm doing one that um I'm calling the anti life, which has a big omega symbol on it. Yes um for that event. Yeah, yes, it's a Zack Snyder. It's actually your pedal.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

That's so fucking cool. It's black on black. That's fucking black on silver. It actually nailed it. That's great. Hell yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

That's great. Restore the cut. Yeah, that's fun. Okay. That makes sense. All right. I wasn't, and you're only making a few of them just for fun.

SPEAKER_04 22:19

Yeah, I'm doing five of them for the event show. But that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Which is gonna make people mad, but I mean, if there's enough demand, maybe you could, you know, do I know.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

That's funny. People like I I am small enough that I can still do limited things like that. But I'm getting big enough that when I do limited things, people get mad.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Because if they're not there, they're there's no way they're not gonna there's no way they're gonna get one. And it is one of those things that's like just do it again. Like because you're small enough, they feel like they could just tell you, like, no, do the thing again. Yeah. And you're like, that's a that's a one and done. Do you worry? Do you think about that with um do you think about branding and things like that? Like your naming conventions, your colors, so you're like, I I wouldn't stray too far out of what you do. Okay. Yeah. Oh 100%. I mean, like because I love that. That's one of my favorite things, is when you can just tell that's actually been thought out.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Oh yeah. I mean, I for those listening, uh, I come from a design background. Yeah. You know, I come from marketing, I come from branding. I'm a designer by trade. So from the very beginning, it was that's all been like very, very intentional. And yeah, you can look at a pedal board, you're like, oh yeah, that's yours. Yep, yeah. And like I I do allow myself variation, certainly, but like everything is designed to be pretty consistent from I love that. The pedal design to the box design to I've started to let myself get some like different designed stickers because I've had some friends like illustrate stickers for and that's like the first time that I've been like, no, no, no, you just do your thing. Yeah, I want to give you money to like make me something cool.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

You know, oh that makes sense. Because it's and it's and stickers are just little things too. I mean, you're still controlling the bass design of the product, which yeah, your designs are very unique, especially because when I think of guitar pedals, I just think of a solid color, bright color, yeah, you know, with with specific labeling.

SPEAKER_05 24:26

Sometimes it's it says chorus with Rx-3M.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah, well, you think of like boss pedals, right? You know what I mean? And that's and that that's a good coloring system. I like that, but they're huge, and like seeing other smaller uh creators emulate that, I'm like, yeah, you know, I mean, they already knocked it out with that, so yeah, try to do your own thing, and then the other ones usually distortion pedals are fucking black and they have some dumbass name or something like that. So yeah, I think your stuff is awesome, so heavy, only the devil can pick it up.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

Boss designed the compact pedal enclosure in the 70s, and it's been the same ever since. And because they did it right, yeah, and they've made it work, yeah. Iconic thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was actually thinking about that the other day because um I'm not gonna put anybody on blast, but I noticed like there's been a trend of a lot of people that are putting very kind of similar-looking artwork on their petals, and a lot of times it's like kind of like uh not Victorian, but like old-time woodcut stuff. Interesting. Um a lot of like religious imagery, and they're always kind of usually like etched, so they're just like black, gray, yeah, and then they'll put very brightly covered aluminum knobs on their petals. Yeah, and I've noticed more than one company doing that kind of thing, yeah. And then I'm just like, I can't I don't know the difference between any of these guys now, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

You know, um which might be part of their strategy is like, oh, we want to emulate these guys or something like that.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

But it that that just makes me think of like uh Etsy, you know what I mean, where it's like just copy paste, where you're like, I kind of don't want you to know I'm different because there's one that's of quality, and the ten of us that's low quality, we might just get your money because you think you're buying the good one. Yeah, yeah. And you're just hiding. And they that's what it feels like to me when I see stuff like that. I get iffy.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah, they might be really great, but yeah, if you can't really tell the difference between the designs and the names and the I mean, there's other guys out there that like have pedal designs that are kind of similar to mine, but like we're all friends, we're not ripping each other off or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but there's also enough variation, whereas like sometimes, yeah, you're just kind of like, I don't I don't know if this is a different person now.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Yeah, you know. Yeah, it it I I think it's just uh like you said, you have intent on design, and then there's some people that are like, I think I can make a quick few dollars. Let's just jump in there, copy someone else's thing, and then when I get found out, onto the next grift. And I think that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Yeah, and I think you know, the way I do my stuff, which is you know, all the enclosures still hand finished, hand painted, and everything. I've never been protective of that process. Like I've always told people exactly how I do it. Yeah, because I know that like nobody else is gonna be able to do it the exact same way I do. Yeah, because they're not me. And that's not out of ego, it's just like yeah, there's a randomness and a pattern and a timing in the way that I do the process that makes them come out the way they do. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

And they can have all the same materials and not get the same result.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Realistically, the fact that we live in New Mexico has an impact on that because I do all my finishing outside, yeah, and in the super dry weather, yeah, in the heat, in the sun, that's going to make my paint process dry a lot differently.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Than someone trying it on the east coast or the west coast, yeah. It's just gonna suck at Connecticut, yeah. Yeah, stupid Tennessee with your swamp asses. Yeah, which actually I think that is a great transition. Tennessee? One of my favorite things about the X Machina script that got cut out, because we're talking about ex Machina, we're talking about screenwriter Alex Garland officially becoming the director of his own material, yeah. And one of the prominent things that is featured in X Machina is a Jackson Pollock painting, right? So we're talking about randomness, talking about intent going into creating things. That's kind of not that Dave is the Jackson Pollock of pedals, maybe he is, you know what I mean? But in terms of his finishes and the way that you do it, there is a randomness to it, just like Pollock did, but just like Pollock, you you uh have intention behind it. But in the original draft of Ex Machina, uh after the scene where Nathan tells Caleb to, you know, whatever, initiate fucking thinking or whatever, he uses the Star Trek reference engage intellect. There we go. And he talks about Jackson Pollock right after that, or it might I think it's right after that, or it's when he's drunk and they're in the painting. I can't remember which one, but Nathan reveals after I bought this Jackson Pollock painting, I had a computer replicate it atom by atom and got drunk and randomly burned one of them, and I don't know which one is the original. And you're never gonna be able to tell the difference. And it's and it's just like I get why he would cut that out, but it's you know, it's such a fascinating thing about like the ego of tech guys, which we can get into talking about this. But like it's such a fascinating thing of you think that's an ego thing?

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Well, it's that how it reasons.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Well, and I think well, I think in now the modern well, I think it's also like the meaninglessness of of choice and all this kind of stuff. Well, we'll we'll get into a lot of it. But now I think it has an even different context with AI because this version of AI was before generative AI came around, which is a big thing now. In the mainstream, yeah. In the mainstream where it's like this could be the generated one, but it still has it's exactly the fucking same. Does that mean that it means less?

SPEAKER_05 30:19

Pendulette. I I full disclosure, I haven't seen it. I I need to because it feels like it would mean a lot to me. Pendulette made a documentary on a guy that's not a painter and he's just obsessed with I think Tim's Vermeer. Yeah, Vermeer, where he's just replicating to like a microscopic detailed degree of a Vermeer painting. And I think Exit Through the Gift Shop talked about a similar thing of like what makes art art versus like it looks the exact same.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:55

You know, like that that that idea is very fascinating to me. So the fact that that got cut out and you said I see why. I was like, no, I don't see why. I want that in.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

No, I mean in terms of pacing of the film, I can see why. In terms of like, you know, because it it it it it's it's meant as like a uh the end of a scene. Okay, yeah. And so when they're editing it, I'm just like, oh, I could tell you because you get the information across in those two scenes when they're with the painting. So I get why it's a fascinating like character detail and a fascinating idea to introduce, especially in today's modern context. But yeah, I get why editing pace-wise they would go.

SPEAKER_04 31:28

I there's that, it also there's so many great examples in the movie of um Nathan being a megalomaniac that are shown, not told. Yes, and that feels like we're being told. Yeah. For sure, you know, for sure. Um there's so much of this movie that is like trusting the audience, and that feels like not trusting as much because it's like I'm gonna tell you how much of a crazy person I am. Yeah, yeah, instead of showing us that they in ways that they do so many times throughout the movie. They're really really effectively. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

Um very good point. I also love the and we're talking about a thing that's not in the film, but it was in the script, and I'm glad we're doing that because this season's about more of a writer than a director. But when you tell me that, it also leans into the idea of a lot of these AI guys, and maybe I'm modernizing it because this is a different thing, but a lot of these AI guys are like the end results what matters, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Not the process.

SPEAKER_05 32:36

I'll throw whatever I have to away, I'll destroy what I have to destroy. Cause at the end, it's like, well, I'm looking at a thing. It was like so much of that was a conversation about NFTs, so much of that is about AI now is like, who who cares? Yeah, look what I can look at.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

I that's all like they made that note, actually, is that like this movie came out 2014? 15. So 2015. Yeah. So over 10. This movie came out over 10 years ago, which means he wrote it even before that. Exactly. And there's a very specific scene in this movie where Caleb or uh Nathan is talking about his search engine and how he built the AI for uh Ava through people scraping people's search results. Yes. And I was like, that's exactly what you're talking about, where it's like just like basically scraping everybody's privacy and throwing it out the window in the name of quote unquote progress. Yep. He's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, like, sure, it's maybe it's not unethical, like what maybe it's whatever. Yeah. But I made this brain. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:48

But look, look, I made this brain. Well, how'd you make the brain? It doesn't, it doesn't matter. I made the thing. Yeah, yeah. I patriot-acted your ass like uh in a dark night. Probably uh at least a dozen years ago, Alex Garland was like, this is gonna be a problem. It's headed this way already, yeah, exactly. Yeah, he before generative AI was even a thing that any of us consider.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

This it's so funny how this movie it doesn't feel dated, but you can tell it's a different time because when we talk AI, we're talking synthetic consciousness, yes, and when we talk AI now, they're like, no, AI's the thing that shows me like Tom Cruise dressed as Mio fighting Elon Musk. Yeah, that's what AI does now. Yeah, so it's like rogues with quadruple F tits. That's what AI is. And this is like, no, we were we were gonna make robots that we were scared are humans.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Well, now we yeah, well, it's yeah, now AI is a data aggregate. That's what AI is now. AI is a fancy word for a fucking search engine.

SPEAKER_05 34:57

Because the money's in information and they're chasing the money. Again, the grifters are like, there's money here, let's just go there as opposed to anything else.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yeah, and it's yeah, so it's it's a it's a completely different AI these days. Yeah, when anyone mentions AI now in 2026, they're talking about the aggregate of data that of like all of humanity, basically. Yeah, they're not talking about consciousness. No, no, and so it's it's a buzzword. It's a literal, it's a fucking marketing buzzword. That's what it is. It's just like this, they've created the next generation of search engines, you know, but they're not calling it that because search engines have been around since the 90s. It's not you can't raise billions of dollars on that. Yeah, so we use AI.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

A tool at work for accessibility testing that recently rebranded with AI at the end of it. Yeah, it's just bullshit. And they are trying to introduce some of those like tools for better accessibility testing. And I was going through it the other day, and every single one of them throws a false positive. Every and everyone, they're like, Can let us know how we're doing. Is this correct? Is this and every time I'm just like your AI is trash?

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Yeah, it's not doing it correctly.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

Like, all you're doing is creating more work for me. Yeah. Because you're trying to get in the way of what I actually know how to do.

SPEAKER_05 36:20

Yeah, you're you're rushing to the end to say you got to the end in six seconds.

SPEAKER_04 36:24

We bring rebranded as AI.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

Look, this is the thing we did. Exactly. It's it's just a buzzword, it's it's just bullshit. It's also Silicon Valley fucks can make more money. That's really what it is. Yeah, uh, that's that's what it comes down to. So people like Nathan can uh make money and make fuck robots.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

Well, uh, I don't this is he's again, I think he's a different cut. He's not an Elon guy.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

No, no. I don't I don't think so. I think well, Elon's a special case, yeah. But yeah, I think he's well world analogs, I think, are are hard to compare him to. Because this guy, even though he's a piece of shit, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:07

He is brilliant, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

He is brilliant, and he's actually trying to do something new at the expense of humanity, obviously. But uh people like Elon Musk and these ri actual rich guys, they they're not like this fictional rich guys, right? They don't, they're not what they're not they're not Peter Whales. They actually don't he doesn't want to actually go to Mars.

SPEAKER_05 37:30

He doesn't actually give a well that's I think that's my thing, is like you know what I mean, and not to not to pick on you because I'm there with you on the same thing, but I'm taking the the money out of it. It's I don't think you can do that, but okay. No, well, you're saying uh like bad rich guys versus crazy rich guys. I'm saying like he's you know, you're saying Elon is a different type of rich guy. I'm taking the money away. That's not their uh descriptor. Nathan's Oppenheimer, Nathan's Frankenstein, like he's here to actually create a thing. Sure. I don't think he's here to make money and go, oh, I can't wait to sell this.

SPEAKER_04 38:10

He's not Oppenheimer. I think he is, he's not, and I'll tell you why. Oppenheimer hated what he did. Nathan is doing it because he wants the bragging rights.

SPEAKER_05 38:20

I think I can see that. I don't know if Oppenheimer hated it the whole time, though, right?

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Oppen Oppenheimer, at least as kind of as I've always understood it, and I am not a historian, but Oppenheimer was like driven by the science of like, is this possible? Also, it was his job to figure out if it was possible. That sounds like this more than a profit thing. That's I it's more ego as I see this. Nathan is all ego. He wants to do this to be the one to do it, to be the one to do it. He wants to do this not to make money, like he's he created the Google, right? So like he's already famous, he's already rich, he doesn't need the money, he wants the bragging rights, he has the ego, he's a megalomaniac, right? I mean, like like we were just talking about, there's so many instances in this movie where it's just like there's literally a dance scene in this movie because he is a crazy rich person who has isolated himself in his mountain mountain castle compound. Of course, he is going to get to the point where he's just like, Yeah, I'm gonna choreograph a scene with my robot. Yeah, when he's fucked up because he doesn't need the money, he doesn't have all his drive is that like I just I want to be the guy that does this so I can say I'm the guy that does this.

SPEAKER_05 39:43

And that's why because you uh we keep saying the money thing, and I think I'm pushing because I just I don't think it comes in to play with him in anything because I also think the film setting up let's say Ava works and this is done. We all know he just drinks himself to death going, Yeah, I'm the guy that did it. It it's spelled out almost immediately.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

He misunderstands and misquotes Caleb back to himself, and he says, he says, when God said, I'm not man, I'm God. Yeah, because he wants the bragging rights, he wants to feel like he's God.

SPEAKER_05 40:25

And when he's drunk, he does do the full Oppenheimer quote, not the not the I am become death, but the other one. He does a full quote, and then while he's there, he's like, This is so Promethean. Like I get he v I get I'm not arguing there's not the ego and the megalomania. I just I do feel like it would still end bad where he goes, I fucking ruin the world, and he would go crazy, drink himself.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Well, that's why I don't think he's he's already doing that. He's already I think he's already doing that, and there's the scene where they're outside and it's windy, and and Nathan knows more and is putting on more of a show than we think, right? At the end, which I think is the dance thing.

SPEAKER_05 41:13

We'll we have to get back to the dance thing because I think I have another take on it.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Well, and I think some of this too is he's just like like he says at the end, Ava wasn't necessarily the test, Caleb was the test. He was there to be a tool for Ava to use to prove that she can be conscious. So she's designed off of his porn searches, all this kind of stuff. And I think Nathan's putting on a show for most of the time. I think he is some kind of asshole, but I think he has a sense of self-awareness where he's like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do this misquoting. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Well, so that actually kind of ties into something I want to talk about that William and I talked about before I came on. That like I have seen a through line in Garland's work that you guys haven't really touched on, and it's kind of a traditional sci-fi thing, but it's all about control. Yeah, yeah. And throughout all of the things Garland has written is like no matter how much you try and control things, there are always things that are out of your control.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

And this is jumping ahead in this movie, but like that's a really good upside. But like this movie is all about control.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

It's Nathan controlling the situation with Caleb. And you know, there's that scene where like he tears up Ava's drawing of Caleb to put on a show. Like, we can get to the climax later, but that climax is all about shifting control. Yeah, it's all about you thought you had control. No, you didn't. Yeah. You thought you had control, no, you didn't. You thought you had no you didn't.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yeah, and he does a lot of this with camera work too.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

And he it's through all of his work.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

I mean, like Yeah, if you think of 28 Days Later, it's about government trying to control things, the chaos of the rage virus.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

If you think about sunshine and the same thing about trying to control a scientific environment, later too, they they go to the military because they're like, this is our chance to control how we get out of it.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

This is stability, but that's not how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

Yeah, exactly. Sunshine is is all like, all right, we're gonna do this because two chances is better than one.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

But you know what? Yeah, you you didn't put into consideration that the sun is God. Yeah. Yeah, we'll put science versus god.

SPEAKER_04 43:27

Science versus you didn't put into consideration that like the captain of the other ship might still be alive and be a total crazy person. Yeah, yeah. You didn't know it was Mark Strong and he's fucking um never let me go, even though it's it's adapted. Yeah, the whole point of that movie is like no matter how much you try and control, if you are bred for being cattle, yeah, you are going to get slaughtered. You can try and apply for a deferral. Well, guess what? Deferrals don't exist, and now you're still gonna die. Yep. We're recording this out of order, but it's in dread. Yes. Two. The whole thing with dread is like this is a routine thing. They're going to this tower. They're going to this block just to do this thing that they've done a million times. But you know what? It's out of your control. Now what do you do?

SPEAKER_05 44:17

It's it's the crux of one of the biggest decisions someone makes is like, we do the law. I am the law. And she goes, dude, come on. That's a master of a kid. Let him go. I get I failed. Order and the rules and everything, like at a certain point, I we gotta go against that.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

And the same thing with the mutants, too, of Olivia, Olivia's character being a mutant, and that's like the government, you know.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

Exactly. And and in ex Machina, like Caleb thinks he's in control when he's interviewing Ava. He's not.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Well, and it's yeah, we have the great framing of he's the one who's in the glass box, she's walking around, all this kind of stuff. Yeah, it's fucking brilliantly framed. And it's that's so one of my complaints of this movie, because I think this movie is great.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

I really like my what is my experience with Alright. We yeah, the weakness.

SPEAKER_05 45:12

We just got right into it. Nick fucked up. He's all over the place. He went cross-eyed. You started talking about guitar pedals, and Nick's like, I miss playing guitar.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Which we'll we'll get to that.

SPEAKER_05 45:22

He was writing riffs in his head while you were talking. We should establish. We skipped everything.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Yeah. But I do want to say, I don't think this movie is like. I was gonna say he's so fucking naive and it is so obvious in terms of his characterization. This isn't a this isn't a critique of him and as as an actor. I like him as an actor. But like, since this is literally like a fucking three-hander movie, it's very tough. And when you're coming from the Josh Jenkins observation of the protagonists in Alex Garland's stories are not charismatic, it's really fucking hard because this guy, this character of Caleb is so fucking naive, so which you need for Nathan to manipulate and for Ava to manipulate. So it makes sense in the context of it, but I think it lessens the watch for me, where I'm just like, I just don't enjoy this as I don't enjoy the experience of it as much as I enjoy the ideas of it and the execution of it.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

I I do agree. I think the problem is he can't do the accent. Yeah, he dips in and out and they should have just let him be they should have because like he he can't play American. Is it Irish?

SPEAKER_05 46:39

Damn, you just said or whatever. I'm Irish. Yeah, he's Irish. Is he donal?

SPEAKER_04 46:44

But he can't play, he can't play American. Yeah. And I think that actually kind of gets in his way in some of his acting choices, and there's a few places where that is like made obvious.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

And he can't sell lines in with that accent. It's tough.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

He kind of comes in and out of the accent. There's one one line, and I I think he doesn't catch it, and Garland didn't catch it directing it because Garland is also from the UK. Yeah. Uh Donald Gleason says that when he was a kid, he spent a lot of time in hospital.

SPEAKER_02 47:15

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

And I was like, that's a British thing. Yes. We don't say in hospital, we say in the hospital or a hospital. And he says, I spent a lot of time in hospital. Wow, yeah, good catch. And I was like, oh man. I don't know that I caught that. I didn't. Who knows how many times I've watched this movie, but like I don't know that I caught it before, but like when I was watching it this time, I was like, not only can he just not play American, but if anybody's familiar with British vernacular, they're gonna catch that.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I think that that also plot point doesn't work. The what I upon repeat viewings, it doesn't matter that he has this tragic backstory. We know why he chose it. He doesn't have any family, doesn't have a girlfriend, why he's chosen by Nathan. But in terms of teasing that he has these scars from this car wreck and then having him kind of quote unquote lose his mind by cutting his wrist, which is like cut somewhere else on your fucking body, you dipshit. But I don't think that works. I'm not asking like Caleb is, is he a real human being throughout this movie? I don't, I don't think he gets to that point. I don't think the movie earns that.

SPEAKER_05 48:22

We really have to talk about that because that'll come back to the Alex Garland and Neil Kuckman fuck them to the audience thing that I want to bring up that has come from this movie that Alex has done. But I think we need to start. Let's let's go back to the beginning because we're gonna be a good one. There's a part in the very beginning that speaks to that. Well, I'm saying uh go back to the beginning of the podcast because we're talking about flaws of the film, but you do really like this film. Yes, Dave. Yeah, how are you with Alex Garland as a writer and how are you with this film?

SPEAKER_04 48:59

So I say this acknowledging that the past couple Alex Garland written things I haven't seen. But I I love him. I mean, I saw 28 Days Later when it came out in the theater, I saw Sunshine in the theater. Um I didn't seem to ever let me go in the theater, but I think he's an extremely intelligent and patient writer and also very, very patient director. Like this movie is I mean, the confidence he has is astounding. I love this movie. I've always loved this movie. Like I have the soundtrack on vinyl, like I think there's so much of it that that is so perfect. It is flawed. I I don't think Gleason is the best choice. I think he's a great actor, but because of those things we were talking about, I don't think that it always totally works. He feels a little he doesn't sell it all the time. But sometimes I think he still does really good. But I've also um I've read some short stories that Garland uh uh wrote, and just in general, I think he's uh so thoughtful and successful in his attempts, more so than other people. And I think interestingly, he very rarely really swings for the fences. Like I don't know that he takes a lot of chances because he's so streamlined of just like, no, I'm trying to say this, and he really sticks to that. Like, yeah, sometimes you guys talked about the end of sunshine, how it kind of feels like a little bit of a different movie, and I think that's fair. Um, whether that was Danny Boyle or in the script, I don't know. But you know, he's not a Grant Morrison where you're just gonna be like, I don't know what I'm gonna get. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Because he's gonna have it's gonna be an idea that uh a fascinating idea that's thoughtfully explored. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

Yeah, certainly, at least with Ex Machina, it this feels like a movie that isn't rushed. I think the end product doesn't rush, but I feel like the the way the script is structured, everything about it feels like it was so intentional and thoughtful.

SPEAKER_05 51:04

Yeah, and I I think this is this is a big deal film for Alex because he just came off of two back-to-back adaptations, essentially. Like he was in other people's worlds for Never Let Me Go and Dread. This is not just him original idea, but also original idea, and I'm now fully directing. So now Autor Alex Garland's here, yeah, and that's where I'm fascinated with how intentional everything feels, yeah, and slow paced and confident. Yeah, there's a lot of science, big idea talking scenes, and they're kind of sorta. If you're not paying attention, you missed it. When they talk about how the AI and the brain works, it's really easy to jump over a liquid gel computer concept. Well, you know what I mean? Wetware. Like it's so easy to walk away from that. The whole Jackson Pollack talk, there's so the chess uh metaphor, like there's so many of those moments where he will just be like, I have two geniuses or very intelligent people talking to each other. I'm not gonna slow that down for the audience. Yeah, they're gonna just throw a philosophical or a scientific term out and go, Yeah, that's what you mean, and keep going. Yeah, he says true to the intellect of the characters, and that takes a confidence that I think now that he's fully as the director writer, where he goes, Yeah, we're we're gonna do my thing the way I think I need and want to do it. Yeah, that this film is very fascinating for those reasons to me.

SPEAKER_04 52:51

The confidence in the not just the writing, but the directing, I was really, really struck by it. And I always have been, but certainly this time when I was being really analytical, is like and the word we keep coming back to is patience, yeah. But like there are scenes in this movie that like in the hands of somebody else wouldn't work. You mean Neil Blomkamp? It could be anybody. I mean, like there's a whole scene like when she's putting on the dress for the first time, yeah. Yeah, that is so patient and so kind of sweet. Innocent, yeah. And innocent, you know, she's just uh touching the fabric and she's touching the hair, and the music is perfect. Yeah, the score has those bells, it's slow, sounds like Blade Runner. It's so deliberate that, like, in the hands of a novice, first-time director, nine times out of ten, you don't even get that scene. Yeah, that scene's not even in the script. But he's like, No, no, we're gonna do this and we're going to take our time with this because there is weight here.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

Yeah, it means something emotionally for the character. Yeah, not only Ava, who we're actually kind of not realizing what she's doing in that moment in terms of manipulation, but it's more about Caleb for sure, and it's that anticipation.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

Yeah, and I mean the score, I I specifically made another score. Like I said, I have it on vinyl, I love it. Also, anybody listening, the score was at least co-created by Jeff Barrow from the band Portis Head. It was the first time it was the first time he worked with Alex Garland. He also did Annihilation, and then he did Men and he did Civil War.

SPEAKER_05 54:32

I have a horrible thing to say then. You didn't like it? I love Portis Head. Yeah, that live album is one of the best live albums. I'll I'll say maybe my favorite live album ever. I don't like this score really because it just and maybe this is just because I'm I'm in 2026 and this was over 10 years ago. This feels like every sci-fi short film score. This feels like every modern sci-fi score. I think everybody just wants this digital kind of these little beeps and beeps and ethereal. Like everybody wants that, and the score just it just kept like it's like I don't know, man. This feels so generic to a sterile modern sci-fi film where um there was nothing that stood out to me more than that. Like when I heard the bells, yeah. I'm sorry, I don't think kid A sometimes. Like I do start hearing other things of like I I just heard everybody going, Well, I just want to use this temp score for everything. And it was kind of uh which isn't necessarily the fault. And that's what I'm saying. It could be because I'm in 2026 now that I'm feeling this way. I don't remember feeling it when I saw the movie in theaters, but I also didn't absolutely love the movie when I saw it in theaters. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

I think it's interesting. I mean, I that's fair, you know. Um, I think the thing that really hits me about it and the thing and the annihilation score is very similar in that like Jeff Barrow is able to elicit a lot of emotion with very little. Yeah, there's some pillar moments in the annihilation score. And yeah, the way the way that his the way that his score works with Garland's directorial style, I think, is what also kind of sets it apart. Yeah. Is they feel very hand in hand. Doesn't really like it almost feels like it's very different, but it almost feels like uh the interstellar score. How uh Hans Zimmer like did the score and then Nolan edited the movie to match the score.

SPEAKER_05 56:50

But my problem with with my problem with the example is that's kind of the thing that bugs me is the thing about the interstellar score is we're doing sci-fi with a church organ. Yeah, it wasn't done before. That did feel original, and then this is if you asked me to do a sci-fi score, I would probably be doing my best to rip off what was already done. Like it doesn't feel a step apart where I was like, that's different. I think even the her score that the guy from Arcade Fire like has certain tones and sounds and it has an organic feel to something still sci-fi that speaks to me more than this feels exactly sci-fi. Like if it had more glitchy Apex Twin Square Pusher stuff, I would come in here and say it's a bad score, but it doesn't go that far. But I I think it's just but again, I think it's a personal thing because it's the best of the sci-fi score sound for one of the best modern sci-fi movies. So, like it's it's not its fault that it just did it very well. Because I could also say the camera and the way he's having a discussion with nature, all of that will also forever be ripped off with people trying to do sci-fi. That's not Alex's fault. Yeah, like I'm genre trappings. Yeah, I'm I'm getting that this is a personal me thing that I don't love, but it I get how it works.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

But yeah, because to me, and I hadn't clocked this before, but the score this time around, literally, I was like, oh, this is if Barrow listened to the Vangelis score from Blade Runner, was like, all right, I'm gonna strip all the the 80s, all the all the bombast back, and I'm gonna make this for 2015. That's literally what it sounds like to me. Yeah, all the atmospheric stuff from Blade Runner, all the the bells and chimes are very tied into like Pris uh uh what's her name's character, the the sex robot character in Blade Runner. Um, but I'd never heard that until listening to it this time. I was like, oh, I mean Blade Runner. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, if if you're gonna fucking be inspired by it, be inspired by the best, you know.

SPEAKER_05 59:10

2001, Alien or Blade Runner. Pick one of the three.

SPEAKER_04 59:13

Yeah. Blade Runner, we're talking about a movie that's about synthetic humans. No, exactly. Yeah, it's right there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah, it's one of the biggest influences on it for sure. Yeah. And not only in the genre of the that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 59:24

I I didn't necessarily make that connection, but yeah, I I I hear it.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Yeah, yeah, and I only just now heard it this time where I'm like, this sounds just like that Blade Runner soundtrack, but for 2015 and and slower methodical for sure. But I I see that. I I I get that. And it does did a little bit of a hindsight thing of like because everything for the past 10 years after Ex Machina, this is one of those seminal science fiction films where it's like everything after this, the decade after it, is influenced by it somehow. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 59:53

Uh you just you can't get away uh by comparison uh or you can't get away without it being compared to like tonally never let me go and ex machina are they feel like they're in the same universe. Very close. That's you know why I but but never let me go didn't have the impact X Machina did. Like not even close.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

I know, yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

It had no it's too sad.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:22

It's I think we we we spoke maybe too much about how sad and beautiful it is, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

I think Never Let Me Go also had the issue of like, how do you market that? Yeah, it's a sci-fi movie, but it's not really yeah, like it is a crazy sad love story in a sci-fi framing that is like never talked about. Yeah, it's just kind of shown it's it's an amazing movie, it's a beautiful movie, but like how do you sell that? Yeah, yeah, I how do you sell that to people?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

I completely get it, yeah. Makes total sense.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

And it came about in an era where like the sad adult movies are kind of going away.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:03

Yeah, yeah, it it it it came at the wrong time. I think Sunshine came at the wrong time. I think this came at the exact perfect time. I think Dread came at the wrong time. Dread feels like one of the like blade movie time where they were just pulling comic book, going, that's a weird idea. Here's your money, you're allowed to make it radar, go for it. Dread came out when you know Iron Man and Marvel was like doing its thing. So I don't think Dread made as much because they were just like, This isn't the fun comic book movie. It felt out of time.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:41

The the problem with Dread was Sylvester Stallone, like it really was. I yeah, no, I I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:48

Now we're talking about a different movie, but it's it's in the timing of this, it works. We can go back to X Marchina, but I I agree with well.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:55

I I don't think that's a timing thing, I think it's just like that is dread could have come out today and it would still be an issue. Yeah, I remember when it came out, you know, I went and saw it and I was telling everybody how fucking good it is. Yeah, and everyone was like, Is that a sequel to the Stallone one?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:12

Yeah, and I'd be like, Which is corny that we saw together.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:15

I think we all saw Dread together, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:17

Yeah, yes, I get that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

I do want to digress slightly because for all of Gleason's issues, there is one thing he does exceptionally well. Pathetic loser? A little bit. There's a scene where like it doesn't even matter what he's saying, I don't remember what he's saying, but it's like during one of their conversations, and you can see in his eyes that he is falling in love, yeah, for sure, and like that's a thing that a lot of actors aren't gonna be able to pull off. And it has nothing to do with the dialogue, it has nothing to do with him selling lines, and like you know, like we were saying, some of it's probably the accent that he can't really do, some of it is that the character is probably supposed to be feeling out of his depth, yeah, yeah. But there is a moment where like you can see it in his eyes that he is falling in love, and I was like, that's why he's here. Yeah, he is a great actor.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:12

My my favorite thing Donald does is when they do the Jackson Pollack conversation, and he says the engage in a he looks so he looks six years old. Yeah, he looks like a like embarrassed, dumb little, shy kid. Like he's like sinking into himself anybody that would have called out. He goes, answer the question, and he's just like shrinking into his body, he looks so miserable.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:40

He's really good casting against Oscar Isaac, yeah. Yeah, who is perfect casting, he plays the confidence perfectly, the way he carries himself, the way he walks. He walks like that person. And Donald Gleason is like the opposite, where he like always looks like he's kind of uncomfortable, he always kind of looks like he's like unsure. So, in that regard, he's very good casting. Yeah, they're a good pair. He's this bean pole coder guy, yeah. Where Oscar Isaac is he's boxing, he's dancing, he's you know. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:16

Yeah, it's just like it's the accent, it's the accent that like really they're great opposites, they're great foils. And I guess originally the Nathan role was offered to Jake Jillen Hall, and he couldn't come to an agreement for a payment. I could see that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:30

At that age, I don't think he could pull it off. He's he's too close to Oscar visually to me. I think a young Jake Jill and Hall. No, for Nathan for Nathan. Oh, see, okay, that would work for Jillen Hall was gonna play the Nathan character, not the Caleb. Yeah, no, not Caleb. Yeah. I was like, no, that's bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

But yeah, because visually they're good.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:52

Jake would have done a good uh Nathan.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:54

Yeah, I think he would have too. But there's something about because one of the big inspirations for I Oscar Isaac is Kubrick in the way that he's dressed in the way that he's supposed to be like a megalomaniac. So he's got the beard, he's got the short hair, he's got the thin glasses. That's one of the people he based his performance on uh outside of you know Silicon Valley Tech Bro kind of guy.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:16

Did he really base it on tech bros?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:18

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:18

See, that's what I'm saying. It's like I this is before all of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

He's not necessarily I don't think so. And not in the genre trappings of of uh I'm saying culturally. I'm saying culturally. Like people had a Silicon Valley. No, but you gotta the social network came out in 2010.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:36

Yeah, it's a different era of tech bro. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. That's literally what I'm saying. It's a different techno. It's not Jeff Bezos now technically. Yeah, yeah. It's Mark Zuckerberg, then tech bro.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:47

Yeah, it's it's the understated I wear a hoodie because I don't care to say. It's before the Silicon Valleyzation where they were wearing fucking dockers and tech values. Like it's before that where these guys were like more quiet nerds. Shh. I think it's sure. They're more it's more trend, fashion, all of that. It's before all of that. Yeah, uh yeah. I I I agree with that. Because he's not his corny, like those guys are corny.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

No, no. No, it's yeah, you're bringing more megalomania in. He's bringing more megalomania into it, which is more modern and not at the time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I mean he was ahead of his time there too. I mean, it towards that.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:32

Yeah, and that's why I said, like, when I look at this character, I don't see anything of any of the people that speak on tech now. None of that is in Nathan, Nathan's Frankenstein.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

Well, and I I agree with you, and I and I think that they're that's why I think most megalomania tech characters in science fiction that it's all fiction. Because in the real world, there's no one who wants to be the first person to create AI. It it's all about money in the real world. Where in this scenario it's not, it's about the creation of it. Yeah, and real tech bros in the real world don't give a fuck about creation, they care about power and they care about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:08

They were all hedge fund guys, exactly. They're stock guys that came over, so they're it's a different thing. And yeah, it's yeah, I I agree. I want to talk about Nathan, the working out, the drinking, and one of the things that threw me off with the film that I'll be honest, I think I still kind of sort of struggle with, and it also ties into the everything else. I felt when I was watching this movie, you're clearly setting up he's an imposing figure. So obviously, third act, we're gonna see that might that I'm drunk and I'm gonna beat the shit out of you, or I'm chasing you through this place. Like I felt like you're you're showing me the gun of I'm always working out and I'm kind of a tough, uh brutish figure. We're gonna use that later. I don't think he uses it. I know he punches uh what's his name, and I know he cracks that motherfucker's jaw right off with one hit. That's not what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:09

And he cruelly smashes Ava's arm off, too. He doesn't have to do that. That's a great moment of hesitation where it's like he's defending himself, but then all of a sudden he makes the choice to abuse her. Like I'm punishing.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:21

I felt like uh I'm getting names mixed up. Felt like Alex multiple times in this movie is setting something up, going, that's not the movie I'm writing, and I don't fucking care to pay it off the way you think it has to pay off. One of the things that I wanted to say about the fuck you to the fans and the audience, so much of the press with like the nerdy outlets like IGN and stuff, they would ask him, going, Oh my god, so I have this theory that Caleb is a robot and the whole thing is, and I was like, Never in a million years did I ever write a draft. That's not what this film's about. I'm not interested in that, that means nothing to me. And they go, Yeah, but what if the whole thing and a dream? And he goes, That's I think that's dumb. I wouldn't write a movie that's just incumbent on a final twist. Yeah, I don't write like that. Yeah, so you're saying everyone gets bummed out.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:19

So you're saying you have an issue with the fact that because we're conditioned to expect certain things, and Alex didn't give us that, you're feeling a disconnect?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:28

I f the first time I saw it, I felt a disconnect. Where I was like, it felt like we're going somewhere, we don't go there in a weird way.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

And he does he is known for good setup and payoffs. We've talked about it on the previous episodes already, and he has a lot of good ones in this movie.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:44

I think what you just said about smashing arm is the setup payoff with the I'm working out. There is a quiet, silent rage in me that I haven't let out.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:56

The thing is, he still doesn't let it out. He lets it out in that little way, which is enough, but when I first saw it, I was like, that's it though. But I think it's you show that much of the working out for it to be a subtle payoff, not as a negative. I'm saying I was emotionally, I was like, I feel weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:16

But see, for for me, I always I see the working out as like it's a metaphor for the control and the power in the situation. I get that, yeah. Right? And also it's another example of like this is a megalomaniac alone by himself in a castle. Yeah. So, like, what is he going to do? Well, one, he's bored as hell, yeah, so he's gonna start working out, but also he's probably gonna start working out so he can look buff. Yeah, yeah. Not so he can be the imposing, you know, physical uh character that has a huge altercation, which is also for me, you know, it's like we talk about Alex's patience and his confidence, like in any other movie, you do get that. Exactly. You do get him becoming a monster and chasing them around. And like the climax of this movie is like this 30-second struggle with like drone sound, and then it's done.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

And it's like it's fucking unreal. Yeah. Which like that line in itself right so fucking good. The beginning of the movie starts with Caleb's face getting scanned. Yeah. And it immediately sets up like what does it mean to be human, right? And the whole fact that like, and they talk about it in the movie, you s the the test, the real touring test is that you can see Ava's uh fake, but does she still make you feel something? Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:43

And which we need to get into, I am okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

Yeah, there's a long one. I got a lot of basics. No, 100%. But then, you know, at the end of the movie, the last thing he says is fucking unreal.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:56

Yeah. When the whole movie is about like what feels real, what is real, what you know, the um Yeah, it's a brilliant line. I wrote I wrote it down. The the Mary in the black and white room. Yeah. Yeah. As soon as you know what it feels like to see color, that's what makes you human. Yeah. It's just I mean, obviously, we're talking about AI. Like it's like through this whole movie, but it's so intelligently done, you know. Some of it, like him saying fucking unreal, even though that's like the theme of the whole movie, yeah, is almost like so on the nose.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

No, it's amazing. But it's beautiful, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:34

So yeah. I uh this is what I take from this movie is to be human, to be conscious and sentient. The moment, the immediate moment he created this AI brain, put it in this robot body, the body turns on and it goes, I want out of here. I want to be free.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

Yeah, yeah. So I want freedom.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:57

Yeah, I'm not subjugated. And now he's just like, I gotta keep you because how bad you want to get out. Yeah, that's human. Is now it's the test, like we give a fucking octopus, is like, can you use tools? Can you problem solve? But all of it's not to eat, it's to be free. He goes, the minute I turn this on, I knew I had AI because the first thing it wanted to do was get out. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's that's that's what I take as like it's about self-preservation. I was positive I invented AI. Now I need to know how well it works on other people, which the end of the movie, the final image of it. There's a scariness to that in a weird way, where she just fades away in the crowd of everything, and no one will ever know.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:50

I think it says something too, and you guys talked about this with both 20 Days Later and Sunshine. This is another Alex Garland movie where no quote unquote human survives. Yeah. Except for the fact that Ava, Mary in the black and white room, gets out and sees color. And becomes the human.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:12

And it's also the the the sunshine. Caleb got way too close to God and lost his fucking mind. He's peeling his skin back and looking in his eyeballs. Like, I view that the exact same way of like, this is too much. I'm in a realm that I can't comprehend, and I'm losing myself. Yeah, I don't think people are wrong to go, oh, what if? Because the character's doing that. I just think that's one of those things where, like we're saying, another writer would go, that might have to be the movie. Oh, yeah. That might have to be because I'm already there and it's cool, and I think everybody else will go there. That's my movie. And Alex is like, honestly, it's just one scene or it's one thing in my movie. One character goes through in a moment, it's not the whole movie. I have a bigger thing to discuss. So I'm okay having that, doing some setup, paying it off, and walking away from it. I'm very okay with walking away from something else that someone else would make an entire two-hour movie about. Yeah. Because I don't fucking know. It's not about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:18

That is only there to show us that Caleb is losing his grip. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:25

And I think that's for me, that's the dance of the dance scene, is also Nathan knows. He goes, I'm gonna fuck this kid's head up.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:36

Like I'm coming off flippant, I'm coming off like I don't. I know you're having a crisis. I'm gonna play in front of your face because it's kind of fun to watch. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:46

It's fun because it's the thing, he's the fucking test, so he's fucking with them. It's it's control. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:54

And the control thing, one of my favorite things Nathan does that is so understated is when he shows him the audio of him ripping up the paper, and Caleb says, Turn it off. Yeah, just immediately okay, and turns it off. That's such a like I don't know just sits down in the background. I made my point. We're good. Yeah, that is okay, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:16

And him walking away is like, I'm gonna let you off the hook, follow me. Yeah, like just treating him as a child. I had to fall for it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:22

I knew the minute this was built for you to fall, so it's not a failure that you felt. It's not I feel great because it proved everything I'm trying to prove. Yes, I fucked your world up, you cut your arm off almost because I just scrambled your brain. It's cool, man. Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:38

I'm about to change the world again. But it's coming from this guy who violated everyone's privacy on the planet. So to him, it's okay. We got just like we said at the beginning, we got to the end result. You prove that she's conscious, so it's okay that I fucking ruined your life for a week.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:53

Yeah, it's like it if I'm if I'm God, what why do you keep talking to me about one flood? I'm God, you know what I did. You won't shut the hell up about one 40-day, 40 night thing. Like, I did from nothing to now and forever, and you're still complaining about kids with cancer. Like, get out of my face.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:12

But for as much as Nathan was trying to control, yeah, there were still things that he could not control.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:21

Yeah, yeah, the human fucking condition. I'm getting out, I'm raging against this goddamn machine.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:26

Yeah, I am a machine. For as much as he orchestrated, he couldn't control the fact that that Caleb was actually one step ahead of him in one instance.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:37

Yeah, yeah, you know. Well, and he's it's ties into the megalomania. It's you're underestimating people that you think you can control. Yeah, right. That both being Caleb and Ava. Yeah, yeah. And fucking Kyoko, right? The you know, yeah, even even her. Um, which the little glimpses into her consciousness are kind of fucking brilliant. Uh, like her staring at the Pollock painting herself, Caleb coming into there and her just fucking looking at it, and then God, what's the fucking line? I think Ava says some line, and then we cut to uh her opening her eyes when she's behind Nathan in his room. I don't know, but there's like these little glimpses of that. I like that, and I love that we don't hear what Ava whispers to her.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:17

Uh I have to say, my favorite in thing in this movie, and one of my favorite things Alex Garland's ever done with the the Mercury scene in Sunshine and other things for other movies is when Kyoko and Ava talk. It fucks me up in like three different ways. It's beautiful, it's intimate, and it's utterly terrifying that like I don't know if they're speaking English, and then there's a weird like tap she does on her arm. I don't know what that is. I don't know how they register physical touch, I don't know what those two computers are doing, and the human in me is scared.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:01

It's the her of it all, where they're all convening.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:03

There's something going on, and I also find it beautiful that those two different things have a moment. Yeah, because they are the same in a way, it means so fucking much to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:15

The one little thing is really interesting because that's also really a through line through all of this, and it's like I made a lot of notes about that where like you know, we talked about kind of the sweetness and the innocence of like Ava getting dressed that first time, like there's intimacy there, and there's a lack of assuredness, like you see her like grabbing the sleeves because she's unsure of like how Caleb is gonna react, right? And then there's that scene between Kyoko and Ava, which is obviously very intimate, like you said, they're like touching each other in weird ways, and like then there's that whole scene where uh Caleb walks in and Kyoko's there naked and she just starts taking her skin off, yeah. In this very slow and almost like sensual way, like somebody would take their clothes off in in an intimate situation. But I'm shocked to show who she really is. Yeah, she's naked and she's taking her skin off. And then, you know, at the the very end of the movie, uh uh which the fact that this movie has a climax and then like allows itself to have this slow, patient, almost like epilogue where Ava is putting the other skin on in the same way that she got dressed in like the dress, yeah, is also a very intimate and almost kind of sensual thing. It's like oh yeah, it's treated very slow, it's treated very sweet.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:48

Yeah, you know. This movie and this is the probably the wrong room to discuss it, but like it does something interesting with the male gaze because the entire thing is set upon like yeah, she looks like your porn searches, she is manipulating you, so there is an innocent, doe-eyed uh game to her, and then they take that away and it's like, okay, well, when she's not playing the game, how does she treat skin? How does she treat her image?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:22

She's still playing the game because Caleb's watching her. Fuck, you're right, you're right, you're right. She's sitting in this warmth and this warm light, she's getting dressed, and Caleb is staring at her from the coldness through the window. So she's still acting. So it's but that doesn't mean she's not also making personal choices, and it isn't meaningful to her. It can be both things at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:43

But it there is, I mean, yeah, uh the white dress and the innocence when she gets to come out of this world and everything like purity, not innocence. And she's one. There's so yeah, there's so much of that in there, and that's where I think it's funny that of course 90% of other directors, those getting dress scenes would be kind of hot. I think other directors would be able, probably one that I name-dropped as a joke with your pedals, is like they would make it where that would get memed for Reddit of like, yes, this is what the future of AI and women robots needs to be. And as far as I know, that's not what those scenes are or interpreted in that community because there's a different angle to this where it's not exploitive or overtly sexual, even in a quote-unquote empowering way, like I think uh Sucker Pudge tried to do and things like that. That's why I am fascinated in a couple weeks when we have to talk about this same guy goes. If you want me to talk about men, we're gonna talk about men.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:56

If you want me to discuss how I think gender dynamics kind of go sometimes, I don't think you're gonna like it as much as you think you are, because I think people started thinking I was one of those tech bro guys because I made ex Machina. And devs, yeah, and devs, and so he I'm again another fuck you to my audience that he's so comfortable to be like.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:20

I mean that verges on the fight club problem a little bit, yeah. Where his what he's actually saying is being grossly misunderstood.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:30

Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:32

Sometimes, right, but it's like that's kind of what you're touching on of just like I I'll tell you what I think. I don't think you're gonna like it. Yeah, yeah. Because people are expecting something. You're one of us because they're misunderstanding what he's actually kind of trying to get.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:46

But I think his hand at directing again, I s I see Romanek way more than I see fucking Danny Boyle in this movie. 100%. 100%. Absolutely. I need to know how I need to know everything about Never Let Me Go, but I need to know how Alex Garland and Romanek got along. Yeah, I'm really curious. If you work twice with an Oscar calibrated director like Danny Boyle, but then you work with this guy that does music videos, and now you come out directing and it looks like Mark Romanek, something you guys clicked on a different level where you go, not only do I not only can I do this, I need to do this, and you showed me I think how that there's something there that I I just need more of. I'm obsessed. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:37

Yeah, I mean so obsessed. I think Romanek's influence is is pretty huge. I think there's also a a pretty high likelihood that they come from a lot of shared influence.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:46

I think so, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:48

But I mean, you know, yeah, they're closer in a gener they're they're of the same generation where Danny Boyle's older.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:53

Yeah, like like we said though, this and Never Let Me Go feel like they're tonally in the same universe. Yeah, there's a very similar patience, there's a very similar treatment of science fiction as a concept. There's a very similar treatment of like these are really movies about people more than they are about the concept in a lot of ways. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:13

Which is what makes science fiction good science fiction great.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:19

You said it earlier is like it's not enough just to have a cool idea. Yep. Like that's not enough. And I think this isn't the only we made a lady robot movie. You know, it's not the only one. Oh, there's double. This one feels like the only one when I watch it. Yeah. I don't watch this movie and go, well, obviously it's this plus this equals this. It I'm like, he did it, he did the AI movie and we're out. And I know people will keep making AI movies, but every AI movie will be the cautionary tale of I don't know, you're gonna make them strong and they're gonna kill the whole house. That's gonna be every AI movie from now on. Is they're gonna get the nukes and kill everybody. They're gonna our fear will be manifested. This film isn't talking about the human fear of losing control. The film is showing you how futile it is to think one to ever play God. You guys didn't watch Kubrick, like stop being God, stop with the hubris, but also like this is this is nature, this is human, is like you're gonna want to be free, and you're gonna be free. And if we go back to that indifference, the end doesn't scream scary. It can. No, it isn't. The end can be beautiful, the end can be scary. Like the end is just kind of quietly placed in front of you.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:45

I think what you're kind of touching on is probably something that John talked about with Dread that you're recording tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:53

Of course he did.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:54

Is I would I would love to have a conversation with Alex Garland because I think he is probably the most confident person that's ever existed. He seems like in that, like, you know, what you're touching on is like he didn't just make another, like, we made a lady robot movie. Yeah, he was like, No, I have something to say. I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring. I have something unique to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:17

He did that with Dread, where he could have just adapted any. There's uh literally almost 50 years of Judge Dread stories at this point. He could have adapted any of them, but he was like, No, I'm going to write a Judge Dread story. I'm throwing my hat in the ring.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:36

He wants to play.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:37

Yeah, it's like all of these things, he's not content to just be like, uh I'll just I'll just do this thing. He always has something to say and he is confident that like it is worth saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:49

Yeah. Yeah, and he the his his ability, as we already touched upon, of like uh you know, Nathan getting buff would have been a two hour movie on its own in terms of that con and that. Specific scene and context and setup and payoff, but he takes these fucking massive ideas and weaves them into these small personal narratives while saying the most about humanity that, like, in terms of the directors that we've watched, and we've watched directors who have things to fucking say. Yeah. But like Alex Garland has loaded more in these first five films that he's written than probably all the other directors we've watched so far. Like it's fucking crazy how many ideas he touches upon because we're talking about how layered it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:39

For the first time ever, we're talking about a writer first, yeah, yeah, yeah. Visual second. Yeah, yeah. Shyamalan writes and directs, and when he's at his best, is when they both uh come together. Yeah, and then there's a certain point where you can tell he goes, I got a great idea. I don't care how people talk, I don't care how this works. Well, he doesn't care about the machinations. I gotta get to my idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:03

Yeah, Alex Garland does research and is more interested in actually exploring the subjects where Shyamalan is interested in conveying things that he believes are real in movies. Like the guy does zero fucking research.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:15

Yeah, I mean I I think you know, Alex Garland truly understands people.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:21

Yeah. You know, and I mean and ideas. We talked about that with Shyamalan is like not only does he not understand people, he thinks he does, but he also doesn't really care that he doesn't. Yeah. He understands film. He likes the idea. He understands films. Yeah. Alex Garland really understands people.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:40

And that and that's what I I want to touch upon, kind of going back to William, and we we touched about about the sen the sensuality and the sexuality and the the inherent loaded meanings and the male gaze and all this kind of stuff. And I and we talked about free will a little bit with Josh Jenkins a couple episodes ago. Yes. In terms of which we gotta dive into next time he's here about people not having free will, and you wanted to specifically dive into it with him. Yeah, it sounds crazy to me. I'm more on his side having watched ex Machina. So, or this time around. And I've talked about this before and we've talked about how fucking men are animals and pigs and all this kind of stuff. But like thinking about it in this context of this film where Caleb is asking Nathan, why did you give her sexuality? And they have this conversation of like what imperative does one gray box have to interact with the other gray box? If you have sexuality built into it and you're programmed a certain way, hetero, homosexual, or whatever, then you have an imperative to interact, to survive, to feel things, which is that what consciousness is? Is that what being alive is? That kind of thing. Again, posing these massive fucking questions.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:55

It's the he as a genius architect went through all the human condition and built it in. Because at a certain point, he goes, Is everything just a fuck? Like, is that all interaction? Like he covered that. Yeah. You can tell, like 20 years ago, Nathan got there and going, Well, is that all consciousness is? Yeah, yeah. The way I dress human language, was everything built upon procreation? Yeah. He goes, I gotta add that to the robot.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:24

Yeah, exactly. Every little bit of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:26

The biological aspect.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:28

Because it sounds creepy, but it's it's beyond that. Well, there's more to it. It makes a lot of sense, but it's it's it reinforces one of the reasons why I think I might be leaning towards Josh Jenkins of we do not have free will, and why I don't trust the judgment of human beings in any way, shape, or form. And when they believe in something like it, we've talked about belief a lot, and so I I get the driving points behind it, but like and it sounds crass when we talk about it, but it's this is this is the movie to talk about it. We can think as human beings that we have control, right? We have domain over the thing. We talked about control a thousand fucking times in this podcast about you think that you can control a scenario, but nature's always gonna fuck it up, or chance is gonna fuck it up, whatever. And Nathan misses that in this, right? Like how how smart Caleb is and how driven he's gonna be by feeling connected to this robot that he already did the shit to fuck with him the day before. But so he's he's teaching us a lesson there. But in my own personal life, I cannot trust my own brain because if I see a curve of a table that looks like a tit, there is something in my brain. There is a an animal brain, my lizard brain is like that reminds me of something biological and a process that I am driven to do, and I can be aroused by that.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:55

And I know it is not a breast, but I see curvature and it's the implication of what it represents to that side of my brain, this animal side, and it can influence how I'm feeling. It can have a physiological uh impact, and it could influence my decisions. So, as smart as I am, quote unquote, as a human being who has free will, who gets to choose, I get to choose what I want to do with my life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All this kind of bullshit. Whatever fucking story we tell ourselves about why we're so goddamn important, I see the implication of a breast in something, and it triggers something that I cannot control. So I think all control is bullshit.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

But you don't, you you can you can destroy the table because it made you feel a thing you don't want to feel. Yeah. You can hump the table to give in to the feeling. You can go get your wife. And I don't do any of those things because I do have control over myself. I think how you feel.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:53

I think both things can be true.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:54

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

That's the free will. Well, I know, but the free will over myself.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:59

Which is what free will is.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:02

Yes. I also like it's at the same time. I don't have it because it's this thing that's being elicited. I don't I don't, like I said, I don't I don't fully agree with either side.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:12

But I think it's it's a really big it's a big philosophical topic. I think one doesn't disprove the other.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:19

I agree. I agree. Because I was I was gonna say in that's why I'm just saying I was leaning towards him where it's this combination of the two where like I do have this control over myself, but but this is something that happens that I cannot control at all.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:34

I hate that both of my examples right now are about suicide because it's too on brand. But first, one, when you said curve, I thought you were gonna say a curve in the road and you have the urge to go straight. And I was like, brother, driving the house is hard. But I can't right now just stop breathing. Like my body will not let me just hold my breath. Yeah, yeah. My body will kick in, I have no free will, and the body will force the breath.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:04

It's a biological response, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:05

So, like, in that context, like you see something and your body reacts to the visual and the mental, and you can be aroused, you have no control over that. Just like I'm not deciding uh breath, breath control is a it's a phrase. Yeah, yeah. When am I breathing? When how long do I hold it to make this sound better than yeah?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:28

You can have some control over it.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:31

So certain things are in, certain things are out, but to free will sounds different to me, where it's like if you get turned on by that, and then you go get your wife, and you guys do horrible, disgusting things with each other's bodies, that is like, well, you could that's not that was predestined, that was set. You had to see the table to get the thought and feeling to go do the thing, and that's where I'm like, that's not I don't believe in that. Yeah, I think you have a million choices when you see that table. What you do is different than what I do because I can see that table, think of the tit, and I could just laugh at myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:13

And we're saying a table because there's literally a table here for people.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:16

And I keep pointing at this square, yeah, it's square, but like to keep with 90s video game graphics titties. Exactly. Yeah, uh Laura Croft tit table. I would look at that, I would laugh at myself over really that's what did it for you. I wouldn't get turned on because I would get self-deprecating with it, probably yeah, but that's your conscious brain commenting on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:37

That initial reaction you had nothing to do with.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:41

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:41

I think it's too productive. That's such a small part of life. I think it's it's too productive.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:46

I I I agree, but it it it just it makes me feel I can empathize with Josh Jenkins' perspective a little bit on that on the spectrum.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:54

Uh with uh none of us would know anything about that with Steven Universe. You talked a lot about it. You you talked pretty big about it too, is like it's in condescending there and pulling a Nikki B over there. Because what you said was a a little crazy, where at the time you were having a kid for the first time in your life, and you were like, it's crazy that we're that you're you guys aren't doing that. Like you're kind of sort of doing it wrong because the animal natural order world, you were doing it, and you go, This is this is what we're supposed to do to go against this. I'm sorry, but it's wrong. Like you got a little high horse. I don't know if I actually said that exactly, but I it was a couple years ago, and me and you were going through a few different things, but like it was one of those things where you talked to it, it feels a similar thing of like there's a there's an impulse in your head, and then you clicked to live within that impulse, and you go, Yeah, this is I think how this is yeah, but that's how that's how all life is with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:59

Yeah, I'm a great I only I can only lock into my own experience and actually frame it by what's happening in my life. That's not that's a fucking dumb point. It was your point. No, no, no, no. What you are saying, pointing that out, that's of course, everyone's like that. If you're fucking depressed like you are now, you're gonna put everything through a fucking depressive lens. If I'm a father now, I'm gonna put it through a father lens. No shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:22

But I wouldn't say And I'm not making any moral judgment against people.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:26

We can't we've fucking talked about this. Well, and in terms of sometimes it sometimes you could, or sometimes you can, sometimes you do. Look, if looking at it from an anthropological perspective, which I have no authority to even say that fucking word, but no, we're here now.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:42

We're all experts on whatever we say.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:44

No, but and I mentioned I thought we mentioned it last podcast, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:38:47

Too of maybe with Never Let Me Go, where it's like I was thinking about that thing you said about how I'm not man, I'm God. Yeah, exactly. The the Nah, you said I'm God with our generation. Nick, you created life.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:02

That's true, I am God. I mean, right? That's not a crazy like No, but I think it's fascinating to see all of my friends who don't have children, who say these things and haven't had this experience and aren't thinking about later on in life. Yeah, all we're thinking about is the world's gonna fucking end.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:18

In in a way, being a parent is baked into what I think Alex Garland's viewpoint is of like you can have a kid, you can do your best, you can absolutely be the best father and the best mother that you possibly can, and raise the kid as you see as right and give them, you know, it's the Superman thing. Yeah, but as a parent, the best we can do is give you the tools. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But at the end of the day, no matter how much you try and control, yeah, it's not gonna happen. You cannot. There are things you cannot control. You cannot control certain things about your child. Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:57

And that's that's the thing that's so fascinating to me to use Nick as the example. We make the joke, but it's rooted in something where you've said, and I I'm forgetting the word you use to describe Leo, like he's a sensitive boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:13

And when you say that, you go, I mean, look at who his parents are. You and Kira are sensitive. Yep. I've been around you guys. You guys are not forcing him to be sensitive. You don't force, like, uh be scared right now, be sad, right? Like, that's just a natural thing in him. It's not a learned thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:35

You don't know that.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:36

Well, it to an extent it might be, but like the only people he has to model off of.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:42

I I agree with you. Yeah, I mean, you're getting into it's all very much. But that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:46

But this is what I'm saying, because we're talking about like creation, we're talking about control over the thing you create.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:52

I mean, that's you're now you're getting into like the uh twins separated at birth that end up living exactly parallel lives and are exactly the same person.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:00

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Is like that's what's fascinating to me, is like it could be learned. You're right. Some of it has to be. It has to be. But the both thing is what's fascinating to me is like as a parent, you do a thing, you do the tools. There's still that other piece of the the science, the biology of the you just gave a chunk of your DNA in a soup. What comes out, comes out, what doesn't, doesn't type of thing. I think the human thing is what I was trying to say with the the other thing is like the human condition is to want to create human life, art, whatever it is, humanity, but also like control art in a gallery to prove you have a soul. That's so human, and then also to to create a thing to try to control something. He's not making a robot and just leaving it in the room going, I just want to watch it grow.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:56

Yeah, he's not interested in that necessarily. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:59

There's a drive to control it. Yeah, and that's why Alex keeps talking about both of these things that you can make the argument.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:07

That's why she's locked in a room.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:08

You can make the argument, it's the what's the this is Huey Lewis, the power of love is what cut her half of the fucking room. Like, he won't stop talking about love and control over and over and over, no matter what sci-fi twist he puts it on, because those are the two human things. So when we talk about free will, is like, are you choosing to want to create, or is that just in all of us, like you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:34

Like, that's it's well that's in there. Because in the in the animal kingdom, right? That's what we're talking about animal brain colors and everything is for that. Well, yeah, exactly. It's all that's it's inherent to biology to want to propagate and pass down your genes. Exactly. We know that, but yeah, human beings are driven to create other things other than life, which makes it human.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:56

Well, uh both, but like that's the that's why they keep that's why you talk about Jackson Polk, that's why you talk about chess, that's why you ask her to draw something. Yeah, that's why he goes, I want to see what you want to draw. And then she immediately is like, I know what the fuck you're looking for. Yeah, guess what? I'm gonna draw. I'm gonna draw the coolest looking picture of you anyone's ever drawn.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:17

And after I've drawn the room that I'm trapped in.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:20

Exactly. Also, for Alex Scarland to understand the nerd persona and be such a confident, uh, I would say fairly good looking man, shows how much of a true, honest nerd he is. You want the way to a guy's heart? Yeah, every nerd that got a good drawing of themselves from a girl going, I was just thinking of you. He's like, I fucking love you, and I killed everybody in this entire complex for you. Like, of course he did that. One, you look like my porn search, and you drew a picture of me. It's like I'm fine. Yeah, the idea of Nathan right now. He's gonna start working out. Like, he's there for that now.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:56

Well, and she's very smart and tired. She's like, I hope you're watching me. And also, yeah, just her lines and delivery to him are so fucking good.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:03

Because it also goes back to the porn thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:06

It's like yeah, the TV's in your bed. And there's no sound. You don't care what I'm fucking talking about. You don't need to hear me discuss things, you're physically attracted to me. And the fact that I'm a little girl to you is also part of that. Not just physically, though. Like that's what we were talking about, but that that's like it all works because of the human condition. It's like I wanna love. She wants to love and wants to be loved.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:34

And there's a little bit of a hero like, I'm gonna save you, I'm gonna get out of here. You're trapped. There's a big bad guy here. I'm gonna slay the dragon for you. We're gonna control this whole thing, and we're gonna run away together. He doesn't want to get her out other than because we love each other and we're gonna be together. It's not to save her, that's a different thing. He loves her. Yeah, we're gonna save our love and we're gonna start a family together. It's not just get you to freedom. Yeah, his saving isn't freedom.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:06

Yeah, it's come, it's it's it's it's incumbent on them being together. That's the control thing, yeah. Exactly. And there's two details that I noticed of that kind of final scene, right? Um, which I I've always enjoyed her just fucking leaving him. It's so fucking funny. It's beautiful, but uh and she barely even looks at him, you know, right before the elevator closes. But two things that I'd never thought about necessarily is her final manipulation of him, of when she's in there, her arm is broken, he wakes up after being knocked out, and she just says, Will you wait here? That is such a fucking brilliant move. Where Caleb, if he was smart and he wasn't blinded by love or whatever, he thinks that she's still being altruistic because Nathan was a prick, they're both right about that, but for you know different reasons. But he chooses to sit there and watch her during this sensual scene of her getting dressed and and becoming a real human being, and then she just fucking walks away. He could have like I gotta pack my shit. He could have he, but what does he do? He's a fucking dum-dum, and all he does is watch her. It's like, no, no, dude, you gotta be like, how are the fuck are we getting out of here? You still don't know if she's genuine or not. Literally, Nathan literally just told you what happened and she manipulated you, but you're still too fucking infatuated.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:25

I fucking love you, go get changed, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:28

I'll sit. He had 10 minutes to try to figure out how to fucking get out of there. But so that's funny. I never kind of put that together. I'm like, oh what a fucking dipshit. He had the time. And then two, when she gets to the helicopter, we don't know if she kills the pilot or not. And I'd never clicked that until this viewing where I'm like, we don't as soon as the helicopter takes off, we don't see the ground again, we don't see who's piloting the helicopter, we only see her walk up to it, then we cut back to Caleb trying to fucking get out, and then we cut back to the helicopter taking off. So I'm like, there's a malevolence there. Could be where it's like, is is she just doing the fan bots seduction thing to where the pilot or is the pilot a robot?

SPEAKER_05 1:47:08

I know some people exactly, and that's uh that goes back to that. Or is it as simple as the way Nathan does this is one pilot drops a random dude off and it's a completely different pilot that only knows they're picking someone up. Good question. You don't talk to anybody, they've never talked to Nathan. Yeah, yeah, so they just sit and then she Ava walks up and goes, I'm ready to go. Good call. It's like you don't have anything. She's like, I didn't pack anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:32

Yeah, it's a fun unknown. It's a fun unknown. That's yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:35

All the stuff at the end is like it could be creepy, yeah, it could be cool, it could be malevolent, or it could be innocent. You put that on there again, the Jack Symbolic of like, what does this mean to you? Yeah, what do you feel about this? That's good. And I'm just this movie's fucking good, man. Alan Charlin's fucking good. Yeah. And I love that we keep talking about this of the like, it's it's just love and creation and trying to prove how important those things are.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:05

Well, the pure craft of it, too, I think is important because you know, we talk about the confidence and everything, but like he does some very traditional things in this. Yeah. Like he's operating on a level that a first-time director should not. Yeah. But he is also still like the checkoff sushi knife. Exactly. We see the sushi knife, she's cutting sushi earlier in the movie, and then that's the tool that she uses to stab Nathan with. And it's like things like that are like so basic film craft 101. Oh yeah. That's that it's but it's still because it's wrapped in all of this other stuff, you're just like, oh hell yeah. Exactly. Hell yeah, the sushi knife.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:46

Well, because it always feels good when it's when it's earned or it's not done cheeky. That's a different stand up and clap.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:54

Speaking of the sushi knife, like when he gets stabbed with that, we talk about intimacy, we talk about sensuality. Yeah, it is slow, it is deliberate, they are very close.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:07

Very disturbing because it also looks easy if me. And she just looks at him after you know, after the first stab, and yeah, and when Ava stabs him again, she twists turns it. You're just like, fuck, bro, that's so fucking brutal.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:21

How's it feeling to make a thing that hates you? I was just like, I know, such a fucking metal line. She doesn't care. She's gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:29

Well, yeah, and and speaking of that climax in the hallway, as soon as Caleb gets inside, and as as soon as he sees Nathan, we get a shot of the hallway before they even get in there. It's just a fucking Kubrick shot centered in there. So he's already establishing the final, you know, it's the setup payoff.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:46

Um yeah, what you said about her not caring too. There's a moment where her and Kyoko are down at the end of the hallway, yeah, and like she kind of starts walking towards Nathan and he yells, Stop, and she just blinks and starts. Running. And that shot with just a blank face. She's just like, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:05

That shot is so fucking scary, and it's the only shot in the entire movie that has handheld.

unknown 1:50:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:12

No, there's another one. There's a couple.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:14

Where's the where are the other ones? So um, because I I noticed a few I didn't check that. Like when Caleb wakes up in the middle of the night and turns the TV on, like when he sits up, that's handheld.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:26

And I think the Mary the in the colored room, I think those are handheld too, actually. There's not many, but there are a couple.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:33

And because there's so few, they really stood out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:36

Which that's yeah, exactly. It's intentional.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:39

Can I say something that I wish this is one of my few pet peeves? I don't like the black and white white room sequence seeing her outside. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:51

Well, I think it's him dreaming about it or he's thinking about it. That's what I think it is. It's supposed to be implied though.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:57

I don't want to see her outside till the end. I just it for me, it's cleaner and it means more. And I get it's a dream sequence type of thing, and it's even in black and white, which is totally different.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:09

Well, it's not because the there's moments of she gets outside and she's standing on that like ledge, yeah. And the it's almost like crazy saturated color. Yeah, that's right. Oversaturated.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:21

I don't like it. I don't want to see her outside until the end. I wish it because I like the idea which we joked about uh uh with the other movies, is like do the malik, do the POV, do the or this is her outside looking at leaves and animals. You just didn't want to see the I don't want to physically see her outside until the end. And I was like, I just that would have been a little cleaner for me. That's a tighter little thing that I was reaching.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:49

After that scene when she's getting undressed, it's like almost security camera. I don't know if it's supposed to be actual security camera, but there's a moment where she's taking her clothes off leggings and all that inside, and but there's she's like framed in front of the plants that are you know outside. Yeah, you know, just playing off that like yeah, she's stuck inside, she's not living, these are things that are outside, yeah. You know, and yeah, I mean, and again, that's just also one of those things. I'm currently listening to you guys do Better Call Saul because I'm watching Better Call Saul. All you guys talk about is informed visual storytelling.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:32

Yeah, I mean it's so it is so fucking good in Better Call Saul. Yes, great. But it is here too. Yeah, well, that's what we were talking about, I think, a couple episodes ago. Is we're like we're stoked to get back to this. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:43

Because he's uh you you said of like this has to be on the list of some of the best, and I don't know if there's an asterisk to it or not, but this is one of the best uh directorial first debut films. This is up there with Boys on the Hood and bring it on to me. Like for the first out of the gate, this is what you do is insane. Yeah, this is crazy. Yeah, nobody should be this good.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:11

No, yeah, and he's been able to replicate with great storytelling chops and all this kind of stuff. I'm sure this is still a lot of people's favorite Alex Garland movie, but this isn't a case of like you know, uh from around the same time, obviously, and you already talked about him with Neil Blomkamp, who made a fucking amazing film in District 9 and has failed to follow it up in any way, shape, or form. So it's not a one-hit wonder kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:34

Which uh Neil won't stop coming up in my brain when I watch Dread, and when I watch this, that security cam footage in Dread, and in this one, uh, like all of the world building in Dread, and all of all of that stuff, I keep looking at these things being like, I'm glad we have people that are what I thought Neil was gonna be. Yes, because I was scared we lost something great when District 9 came out. Yeah, those Halo commercials are cool. Oh, yeah. There was so much promise of like, here's another brain in the sci-fi world that could also do big budget, and he's friends with Peter Fucking Jackson. Like, I thought we were gonna get something, and I'm like, it's okay. We we got it, just not with him. Yeah, and that's keep thinking of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:22

Oh, yeah, and I I'm of the same way. Ten years ago, I was pretty bummed about Neil Blum camp or camp not uh living up to his potential, but now I'm like, well, we still have District 9 again, is like that's like a fucking seven-off science fiction film, and I'm like, I'm glad we have that one. That's all that matters.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:39

Yeah, you haven't rewatched it in a really long time.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:42

It's the last time I watched it, I just wouldn't stop saying two things. One, it visually, like the effects look great. I was like, this is just so fucking fun. It moves so quick, and every little bit's fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:56

Yeah, Charlotte O'Copley is also really great. And I may have talked about charisma. Butchered his name a little bit. No, I think that's how you say it. Charlotte Copley. Charlotte's bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:07

It's the LT is uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:10

No, he's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:11

Yeah, yeah, that movie's killing.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:12

Yeah, I should rewatch that. Even a lesser kneel of like Gareth Evans is like, is it Evans or Edwards? Godzilla boy. Edwards, Edwards, yeah. Yeah, Gareth Evans is the other guy. But yeah, uh even Gareth Edwards of like, yeah, we're we're still getting high concept stuff in a fun way. Alex here, uh, Denny did what he did with a rival. Like, I'm okay. I'm at peace that real old science crash and burns. I'm very okay with that. I think a lot of people probably feel the same way with um the upstream color primer guy. Yeah, it's like that was one of those where we're like, man, I thought you were gonna be the guy. You crash and burn, but it's like I think at this point we're like, we got enough. Alex Scarland kind of took I see I see upstream color and primer in Alex Scarland for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I could see it. I think this is more palatable, and I think it's um better storytelling. Even I was gonna say better uh actual screen structure, yeah. Yeah, this is a screen writer. I don't know what Shane Carruth is. He's something, he's a creative mind. Yeah, he's not a screenwriter. No, he lucked out putting it in the city.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:25

He's closer to a he's closer to a Harmony Korean than he is to like an Alex Garland.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:29

I think there's something to be said for the fact, too, that Alex Garland was a prose writer. Yeah. Like he he didn't start out. Maybe he always wanted to be a screenwriter, but he didn't start out as a screenwriter. Yeah. And I think that probably changes it quite a bit for him because he wasn't like, oh, I've got a great idea for a movie. I'll I'll figure out the script. He is a writer, a capital W writer. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know. And I think that obviously I mean, not all writers are created equal, but like that clearly did something for him in terms of like you know, knowing how to actually tell a story.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:09

Yeah, compared to even a lot of these bigger sci-fi movie directors who we love, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:14

The more I watch this movie, because I've seen it a few times now, I saw it twice in theaters. The more I watch it, I don't know what it is. I don't love it. It doesn't go down as there's more negatives, there's more nitpicks, there's none of that. I just feel like I like the bigger swings from Alex. And this feels like I still think it's probably one of the best ones he's done, and it'll stay that way. Uh, one of his best scripts, this is maybe his best directing. Like everything's there. He's done other stuff that I think of more, and it's kind of goes back to my example of the score, is like, yes, this might be the quintessential sci-fi score, but that annihilation thing, I'll never not think about that, and I won't think about you know it. That's a big swing where I go, I've never had that fucking before. Right. I mean, so I think that's stands out.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:13

That's context though, because like you can't do that in this movie. You can do that in Annihilation, yeah. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:20

But I'm just as an example, like I think Ex Machina is really, really fucking good, close to a flawless sci-fi. I don't think about it that much though, going forward in my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:34

I a hundred percent agree with you. Like, I came out of this movie, and I love so much about this movie, but there is something about the acting, there is something about some element of the filmmaking itself, be it the actors, be it something like that, be it this a little bit of the structure, the chapter structure, which is still fun. But like, as much as I love everything about this movie and everything that it talks about, the movie itself, I just come away going like this is really, really good, but it is not a movie that I love. You know what it is, but it's odd, it's odd.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:08

And you're the guy to say this to. This is it's the Jackie Brown problem of like, this might be you at your best, it's not you at your big swings, it's not you at your most colorful, and it's not you at a mix of your highest highs and lowest lows. We should give the audience context for that. Dave loves Jackie Brown.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:27

I literally just watched it like a week ago, and it's because it's my favorite Tarantine. And that's it's the least Tarantine-ish. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:36

You put any other thing to Jackie Brown, that's their best film that guy's ever fucking done.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:42

I think that I get what you're saying. I don't fully agree because I think that this is so Alex. I mean, Jackie Brown is it it's an Elmore Leonard novel. Like it's Tarantino's only adapted screenplay. Yeah, it's the least Tarantino, whereas I feel like ex Machina is the most. It's he's saying so much of what his what's important to him, what he wants to say. You know, Tarantino, I think, is never saying anything. No, yeah. But like Except for I like movies. But I I kind of get what you're saying kind of cool. In terms of being the big swing.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:24

Yeah. I mean, I'd agree. I I didn't I when you said it, I immediately agree with this is the most Alex Garland uh film. This is the quintessential. Is it this is him?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:37

Possible though, that what you guys are responding to is that like you have now watched four. By the time this comes out, it'll be five Alex Garland movies that are home runs where eventually if somebody keeps hitting home runs. Yeah, no, you're gonna have like like I feel like this is sure. Maybe it's the fifth home run, but it is the perfect home run. It is, but it's no longer exciting. Yeah, it's no longer and also this movie's not exciting. This movie is slow, this movie is patient, this movie is deliberate. Yeah, this movie is all about intimacy.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:10

This movie is about smallness, it's not about I think you're it I think me and Nick would be cheering more if he started Rocky and then we're like, we're here, now we're officially here. Yeah, this is Alex. We didn't do we did that with the first one. Yeah, even the second being You are very messy.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:31

You are now two movies removed from what both of you guys consider your favorite movie. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:37

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we already we went over the peak for us, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:42

But it's it it was the thing of like now.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:44

I don't think you are over the peak, is the thing, is I think he hit the peak and you are still there.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:49

Well, uh in terms of I am sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:52

I stay at the peak for a while. But once you get getting to the peak, the exciting part, and now after this, he actually experiments a lot more and he takes bigger swings, like you're saying, and they don't always land as well. But there are some higher highs in those movies than maybe here.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:08

Literally, everything now will be a mixed bag from this point forward.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:12

Yeah, this is his most steady for the movie. But if this was swapped with Never Let Me Go, yeah, I think you guys would probably feel different.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:19

I think so. It's the problem of uh Michael Mann had to fuck up in open with Thief. Like that was a crazy, like, no, the dude's here. Yeah, so by the time we got to Heat. Ridley Scott's the same thing, yeah. Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:35

I mean basically, yeah, yeah. He put out something before Alien, but nothing.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:39

Like when duel no, that's Spielberg.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:42

When we hit is it? Oh yeah. When we hit a masterpiece, duel is Spielberg.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:47

When we hit a masterpiece like Heat, it's less of like, I can't believe he fucking did that. It's more of he opened close to this level, fucked around a little bit, not not on a lesser, just not this. And then we keep having them talk of like, what happened? This is kind of the like, yeah, you came out, you've been great the whole time. You just were great again, just crystallized. Yeah, yeah. We're like, yeah, it's cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:15

It's it is cool. But the the big thing here is that, like, yes, he hit another home run, but now he has also hit a home run as a director.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:24

Yeah, yeah. So not only did he just like deliver a great script that somebody else delivered, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:29

He's on the board now.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:30

He's just like, hey, guess what? Yeah, I'm also better than you at this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:34

Which I think we want to say. We always ask people, like, when did you what's your first Alex? And then when did you clock Alex? This is when I would say everybody as a cultural, like Alex is now a guy. He's an A24 guy. Oh, 100%. He's a writer-director guy. This is the movie I think people are like, oh yeah, let him do Star Wars. Let him do Starbucks. This is also like this puts him on the map for everything.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:00

This is the beginning of Oscar Isaac really being on the map. This is a big one. This was right around Lewin Davis. Like, this is when everybody starts to be like, ooh.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:06

Well, both in 2015, it's this and the Force Awakens for him were huge for Oscar Isaac.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:11

Oh, I didn't I didn't uh remember that's the exact same year. And this is uh, what's her name, Alicia?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:16

Vicander, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:17

This is her. So, like, yeah, this is a I don't know how much money it did. I didn't look at that.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:23

I think it did moderately okay. So the budget was$15 million. It won the Academy Award for Best Visual Effects, and it beat out the Force Awakens, it beat out Fury Road, all these things. It won the Oscar for Best Visual Effects, which it's the least crazy. It's I love it. Least expensive movie to ever win Visual Effects, I think. I didn't know that. And it made$35 million worldwide, so it doubled its budget, so it made its money back for it. For sci-fi rated R, I think that's a huge win. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it did uh modest, but he again, as a director, very smart. I want to do exactly what I want to do. I want to have all the control, so what am I gonna do? I'm making a make it for cheap for 15 million bucks, and I can do exactly that.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:06

Yeah, just fly on the radar, make my thing. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:09

Also, uh, I'm not sure how much of the interior is a hotel, right? But it it the exterior is absolutely a real hotel.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:18

Yes, a hotel in Norway and those the first room that you walk into. Yeah. So when he comes, when they come down the room. It's the rock wall. The rock wall, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:26

So not the labs and stuff, but a lot of the filming was just like we're gonna rent this hotel for a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:32

Yeah, and that, yeah, exactly. And they built a couple sounds.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:35

Which we didn't talk about, and I I want to get uh hippie uh nerdy about it. Is like I think the architecture and the setting and all of that plays back into the control, the human control, the mix of like the natural and the brutalist together, it is for sure what the film is talking about. 100% is that in the visual setting of the film itself. There's a reason why we keep going from these underground, weird, sterile concrete rooms to the vast outside out in the open where literally nature is louder than the people, and you can barely hear the dialogue because the waterfall is so fucking loud. Yes, and then we go back to this low-tech hum, like all of that's intentional, and that's where I'm just like, yeah, man. I downplay it in my brain sometimes when I'm like, Alex did the fucking thing out of this movie.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:28

Oh yeah, he really truly did. Yeah, and it's also it's easy at a certain point when you consume something over and over and over again to have it become a little commonplace. Yeah. And you it takes taking a step back to like analyze it on this level to be like, oh, right. No, like you know, to like really dive into it and to be like, no, he knocked it out of the park with this and this and this and this and this, and these all these intentional choices and all this intentional storytelling that like nobody else would do, maybe not nobody else, but other people wouldn't, you know.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:03

No one else was doing, I'll say that.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:05

Yeah, in 2015. But like when it's been 10 years and you've just watched X Machina once a year, eventually you're just kind of like, Yeah, I mean, I I get it, I know. Yeah, I don't think about it that much, but it's great. I like watching it, but then you watch it under this lens, you're just like, Oh, yeah, he's killing it all on every level, everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:23

And that's the the funny you brought up uh Better Call Soul and to keep it in our world is like for us or for me.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:30

To keep it in the IYB universe, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:32

To keep it in our uh universe, for me to praise Friday Night Lights, it does take a lot of maneuvering of yeah, yeah, yeah. No, forget about that part. Sure, that part's bad. This part's good. This little nugget here, you get to something like Better Call Soul, and then you're like, I don't know, man. I think it's like wall-to-wall, kind of sort of flawless. Yeah, and when you get into like season four, you forget because we've been doing like 50 hours of it. You gotta go watch another TV show that was coming out around that same time and go, yeah, nothing was like this. Yeah, you mean Nick are watching this, going, Well, yeah, that's what they do. When you get to I love you, but so what, we go, Yeah, that's how Kim talks. That's how they write. Kim, go go watch someone else in that year deliver a speech like Kim Wex where and we go, Oh yeah, we were in the bubble of greatness. Yeah. Where we get spoiled. You get spoiled, and you get a big one.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:28

Like you just said, this came out the same year as the Force Awakens.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:32

In Fury Road, like that's a big thing. I love Force Awakens.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:36

I think it's a great super fun Star Wars movie. It's not saying it's not saying anything, it's not doing anything that this movie is doing. Absolutely not. And that's kind of the thing is like we got so accustomed, and Star Wars kind of like ruined sci-fi for culture because people began to think like, well, spaceships, sci-fi. Well, Star Wars isn't sci-fi, like we all know that. Yeah, but like we believe. Well, you can say JJ did that with Star Trek too.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:03

Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean he's ruined sci-fi a few times in his life.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:08

I mean, JJ took Star Trek and made it Star Wars. Exactly. Yeah, but like, you know, for Alex Garland to to come out and you know, I mean, you could make the argument that 28 Days Later is also sci-fi.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:22

And to be like, no, no, no, these movies used to say something.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:25

Yeah, he's it's proper, it's proper sci-fi, which sounds very British, but that's what it is.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:30

No, it is, it is, and it's like it's not just space and it's not just spaceships, and it's not an action adventure, it's not fantasy, and also in 2015, the balls to me, and I'm I'm uh ignorant to all of this, but it really does feel like he came out and said, I'm doing sci-fi, I'm doing AI, I'm doing robots. Kind of sort of fuck the Turing test, kind of sort of fuck Asimov's laws too. Like he's like, nah, robots kill people, the Turing test doesn't need to be done, it doesn't work that way. It's actually the reverse. Like for him to do all because that's in here, yeah, but that's not on the forefront of what the film is. I think is also very funny for him to be like, if I'm gonna talk about robots, we're doing this shit different. I'm not fall-this ain't i robot. Yeah, this isn't you know what I mean. Like he's very quick to go, yeah, they put the knife in as if it is sushi. Well, like this means nothing to them to kill to get outside.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:32

Well, and again, he's more interested in behavior of human beings. Because with stuff like the Turing test and with like yeah, Asimov's, you know, laws of robotics, whatever, which I robot goes off, but like those are made-up things. Exactly. Those are just made-up ideas. That's not he's those are tropes now. Yeah, exactly. So Alex is more just like, yeah, but what would a living being do to try to escape from this thing? That's what that's how he's only interested in the psychology and what's driving the characters. He doesn't give a fuck about like uh you know, sci-fi tropes, no.

SPEAKER_05 2:11:08

And I think it's it's that same brain that gets to the um I created a search engine. That's where this comes from. Like for him to get, you know, you see what I'm saying? Like the machinations of going, well, who would be able to make a robot brain this good? Where you get all that data, this and this and that. He goes, Yeah, this comes f I know how we get here. Yeah. And he was there in 2015 going, well, obviously the writing's on the wall, it's through this, this, and this. That's where we'll pull this information. Yeah, he's very smart and he's thinking about it through a modern lens. And it's a little sort of understated. Yeah. Like, like I said, I think there's a way where you can watch that scene where they talk about wet wear in the brain and just go, Oh, that's kind of cool. And then just a slow zoom into this thing that changes the world in the hand. I I say it goes back to the Fucking metal box on never let me go, of like, yes, this is sci-fi, but I am trying to kind of downplay it of matter of fact in this world. He goes, I know it's cool, but I'm also dropping knowledge on what's going on with all of this in a little bit of a short. It's not actually about the brain. Exactly. It's about their interaction. I I love how he writes this stuff. I love how he writes these big sci-fi ideas, and uh the music doesn't swell, you know, when you zoom into the brain and give like galaxy string, John Williams. It's no, it's you know, we're we're talking about other things. So, so Jeff Barrow did a good job. Absolutely. No, I take it back. I'm sorry, I blasphemed anything really to Boredis head. I I I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:53

All right, guys. So do we have any random stuff we didn't uh kind of get on while we land this thing?

SPEAKER_05 2:12:58

Yes. Um I have another thing that I think plays with. It was cut off. No, no, go ahead. Uh with the um I'm sorry I yelled at you earlier, Willie. I feel bad about it. Which part? I don't know. All of it. The past 30 years. I was gonna say uh the 20 years. The the misdirect to open with the key card joke. I think that's a misdirect to the audience of I don't want you comfortable knowing is this a scary paranoid thriller? I don't want you walking into this movie fully going, I know what I'm getting into. It opens with a pretty dumb joke.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:38

Yeah, yeah, like the ugh.

SPEAKER_05 2:13:40

You could you could say it's also building in the character, he's a loser, all of that. But I I look back to Pirates of the Caribbean did the same thing. It opens kind of dark and creepy. Orlando Bloom's looking at the lamp on the wall and then breaks it off and hides it, going, This movie's funnier than you think it's gonna be. It's not what you think. I think he's purposely from the start going, I don't want you to be guessing what I'm giving you.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:05

And it's not self-serious, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:14:08

Yeah, not sterile.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:10

Um, I do have some notes that we another.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:16

And actually, yeah, and and going off of you saying that, that's another great instance of the visual storytelling is as soon as you know he takes his photo, prints out his cool metal ID, and the door opens, the camera stays locked where the door and he walks in, and it's darkness all around it. You can just see him, and then the door closes. So it's like he's trapped, and guess what happens? He's trapped in the end, he can't get out. Um set up payoff.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:42

Visual storytelling. First time Caleb walks into the glass box, we see the cracks. Yes, yeah, we don't know why. Yep, but it just immediately tells us that something has gone wrong at some point. Yep. So we're automatically wondering like, did Ava do something? Do like what is what has happened. Is it his temper? Yeah, we don't know, right? But it immediately Danger and it's not addressed, yeah. It's just shown to us until later when we see it's from one of the previous robots, like basically smashing her on the room. Trying to get out.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:16

And even even before we see that, during the first power outage, we haven't seen it since that first one, and then the first power outage and Ava says you can't trust Nathan, and then it immediately frames it again in the red, and the splinter thing is framed with Caleb. So it's a reminder of like, oh shit, this has to do with Nathan, and you can't be trusted, or he can't be trusted.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:38

I think the power outages are a good example of the control thing, right? Yeah, whether or not Nathan is allowing them to happen or doesn't actually know that they're happening, it at least is Ava thinking she's in control.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:53

Yeah. When she could be being manipulated by Nathan.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:56

Right. Or Nathan thinks he's in control, yeah, and he can't control that Ava can actually accidentally reverse the power.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:03

It works both ways, yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:05

Which when the power goes out that first time, she's basically standing the exact same way, and the color goes red. Yeah, and immediately it's unsettling.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:16

Yeah, she looks sinister as fuck.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:18

It's super creepy.

SPEAKER_04 2:16:20

And it's just that color shift.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:21

And it's a it's a posture thing too. She leans forward a little bit. Yeah. So it's like this weird under, you know, she's got shadows under her eyes a little bit. And yeah, more visual storytelling. When he's signing the NDA, that's the first pass-off in terms of camera work and and blocking that gives Nathan power over Caleb. So whenever Caleb is reading the NDA, Nathan is lying in the bed, but he gets up and he comes and he sits on the desk. And immediately we're framed where Caleb is is down. He's like a little kid. And then Nathan is framed up like he's tall. And then he signs the NDA, and then he walks away. Caleb's still sitting at the desk, and now uh Nathan is is filmed higher than he is. He's imposing, and on the wides, he's standing up and he's looking down at Caleb. So it's this transfer of power where they're on even keel until that point. And then as soon as he signs the NDA, Nathan is immediately bigger in frame than uh Caleb always is.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:16

There's a really small thing that I noticed, and I will ask you guys do you know what the name of this movie comes from?

SPEAKER_02 2:17:23

Like Deus Ex Machina? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:25

Yeah. Okay, so do you know what that is?

SPEAKER_02 2:17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:28

It's a video game.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:30

Deus Ex Machina. So Deus Ex Machina means machines of God. Yeah. And it's in order to be. Sometimes hand of God to translate something. Well, it's ex machina, it's the machine of machine.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:41

God from the machine.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:42

And it's an old theater term and it dates back, I don't know, Shakespearean times. When Caleb is breaking into Nathan's computer and he's looking at all the old footage of all the folder is named Deus Ex Machina.

SPEAKER_05 2:17:58

I don't think I caught that. That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:00

So, like, yes, obviously it's the name of the movie, but Nathan feeling like he's God. Yeah. Literally, he's yeah, it's not a subconscious thing. He named the folder of all of his past experiments Deus Ex Machina.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:16

Yeah, he's sniffing his own farts.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:18

Well, I was gonna say, because it plays into the uh right, it's also the the writer term for scripts. When something so convenient happens, it's a Deus Ex Machina.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:29

At the end, it's it's like God's hand came in and fixed the plot and helps the protagonist. It's usually looked down upon as a negative.

SPEAKER_05 2:18:36

And that's where I'm saying like Nathan's ego is it's part of his plan. He goes, Well, I'm gonna name it that he won't even know because he's too fucking stupid, and he's still gonna click on it and play right into the the yeah, that's great. Yeah, I didn't know that's a file folder. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:53

I didn't catch that. I had a I guess uh one random thing, which I guess you know you guys can chime in, give me your opinion. Nah, we're good. At one point when Caleb has basically fallen in love with Ava, he's talking to Nathan about it, and Nathan says that her crush isn't programmed. I kind of read that as he's manipulating Caleb at that point. Yeah. Like maybe her crush isn't programmed, but he is trying to control the situation, he's trying to manipulate and influence Caleb as well. Well, him, I think.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:26

I think he's being honest too, is like I didn't write her to fall in love with you because the oh the the twist is she's manipulating you to get out. Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:36

But he's telling him to kind of be like, no, she actually cares about you.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:39

Yeah, which I think is him manipulating a choosing to say that she does have a crush. It's like confirming his feelings. Yeah, so it's a psychology trick where he's just like, Oh yeah, I didn't program her to do that. He feels like it's it's it's a he's confirming there is a crush, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:19:57

But he is making the conscious decision. He's like, Oh, yeah, he's like yeah, he's doing the narcissist thing of like this is a situation that I can um you know take advantage of.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 2:20:08

One really funny line. Nathan says to Caleb, what's your type? And Caleb says, Of girl, and he says, No, of salad dressing. It's so good. I was like, it for a movie that's so serious, I was like, Yeah, that line, the the the Ghostbusters line of the Oh, it's really good. Ghost gives Dan Aykroyd Oil says it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:29

Which is like as a fan, uh Ghostbusters to my core. I love Ghostbusters, watch it since I was a kid. I until seeing this movie, that's when it clicked that that's what's happening in that scene. You thought she was writing. Because I was a kid. No, I didn't know what she was doing. Well, because I was a kid, so so they added the belt scene back in. Yeah, so the belt comes undone. As a kid, I remember watching it, and he just I just think he's dreaming. I didn't know what a blowjob was.

SPEAKER_05 2:20:54

I didn't know I thought just general how people have sex, they were gonna have sex. I didn't put until maybe the last couple times I watched it of like, yeah, she's fucking giving him head.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:06

Yeah, yeah, I never put that. And he's it's like he's just having a wet dream or something, I think is what it's actually happening because he just falls out of bed because he's so tired because they've been busting ghosts. You don't think an actual ghost busted him? I don't know. I don't know. I have to see it again. It's been a while.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:18

But you know what? Honestly, I never thought about that either. I think I just thought it was real.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:23

No, I think he's try I think he's he's dreaming because as soon as the the belt comes undone and he's like and he rolls his eyes back in the head, then it cuts to him. He's wrapped up in the sheets and he falls out of bed. So I think it's a wet dream.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:35

Wow, I never thought about that. I'm gonna dream. Damn, what a great reason to re-watch a great amazing movie to see if he really busts or not.

SPEAKER_04 2:21:44

One small random thing, pretty much.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:48

The wall with sticky notes on it and how much you love it?

SPEAKER_04 2:21:51

No. Oh, me. When Alicia Vicander puts the wig on at the end, she kind of looks like Natalie Portman. Oh, I can see that for sure. Yeah. And then guess who stars in the next Alex Garland movie?

SPEAKER_05 2:22:02

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:05

You could say Kaylee Spenny is a little younger, Natalie Portman vibes too in Civil War.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:12

One of my favorite lines is that feel bad for yourself, man. Like when they're outside and and they're talking about, you know, when he's telling us he's gonna turn her off and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, and just how fatalistic he is. It literally, he's like, Oh, yeah, they're just gonna look at us, you know, as whatever fucking beings that lived in dust and all. I'm just like, you're the one who fucking created this thing, and you're saying that you feel bad for yourself for creating it. I think it's great. But I just love his delivery on that, yeah. And I do want to commend Oscar Isaac, his drunk acting is so fucking good.

SPEAKER_05 2:22:45

Like when he is hammered, when he's on the floor and he's about to and he loses his key card, to me, is the part I love.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:51

No, it's that, and it's him fucking reciting the the other Odysseus quote or whatever the fuck it is. That's Oppenheimer, yeah, yeah, the other Oppenheimer from the Bob of Gita. But um I'm like, this guy's fucking nailing it. He is so good, and he has the different levels where he's the belligerent drunk, where he's you know, when he the first Pollock scene where he walks and tries to use the phone where he's just kind of a prick, and then you have the stumbling. It's so fucking it's it's so good.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:15

The the Pollock scene just reminds me of if you've ever tried to like scare somebody and say you so you like you keep it quiet and you try and say it like you're not supposed to be doing that. Like he tries to get it out like we could call. But I like him on the floor when he loses his key card and he gives it to him. They're a little like embarrassed of like it's like I'm so fucked and stupid right now. Yeah, he does like some eyebrow expressions.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:46

I really like that, but you know, yeah, Caleb and that going to use the phone. Fucking look in your room, dude. If you're going into a room you've never been in, fucking turn on the light and look around.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:54

I how I think about that all the time too.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:57

That bugged the fuck out of me. That's just uh how my brain works. It's like I want to understand the space that I'm in when I get into it bugging. But whatever.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:04

In that room, I think there was a really, really interesting choice in that there's this like honeycomb geometric thing on the wall that you you think is just weird modern art in this brutalist space because it's kind of concrete and it's like blends in in a weird way, and then it turns out to be part of the disco room. Yeah, yeah. Like there's lights behind it and stuff. And I was like, that's like an installation. I was like, that's really pretty fun. Like it doesn't mean anything. Designed with a person, it's just fun. That's great. So yeah, yeah. This movie's really good. It is, it is really fucking good.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:37

I think you're probably right. In terms of the craft of this movie, it's a fucking 10 out of 10, but I just don't I just uh there's some emotional disconnect for me uh where I don't it's the respecting it objectively versus enjoying it subjectively.

SPEAKER_05 2:24:52

Because there might not be something that this film has that I walk away with where like like I said, when I'm done watching it, there's not a part that there's not the boat on the beach where I'm like, I can't stop thinking about it, or I can't stop visualizing, or there's not a bit like that in this film. It's just as a film, it kind of sort of doesn't get any better. Like everything's just done perfectly well.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:17

I I think there's a lot of scenes like that for me. Yeah. Like I think the the first getting dressed scene has always really stayed with me. I think the climax murder scene has always really stayed with me. Yeah, for sure. Yeah and and the patience of it, you know. Cause yeah, and it's that kind of thing where it's like this is how this is how Alex Garland has to do it, but I don't think really anybody else could do it like that.

SPEAKER_05 2:25:48

No, yeah, that's that's the you know, to just go watch a few sci-fi films and it'll remind you how uh apart this one is from the rest of like, oh yeah, no one they don't do it like this. Yeah, I mean like just watch a few, watch a few good ones. Look at Sunshine, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:05

I think Sunshine is excellent. I do too. But it's still like if if he was still working with Danny Boyle, we don't get ex Machina.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:12

No, we just don't, not at all. I that I came off of this, and whatever I don't I don't compare his filmography to Never Let Me Go because that's a special thing, but like I came off of this, like I like Sunshine better than this movie, even with the crazy third act, which I don't really enjoy, but I like more than Jenkins did. But like I like the third act of Sunshine, and I no, and I I just don't like it. The more I watch it, the more I like it. No, I I just don't like the uh the visual the visual choices that Boyle makes. I the plot of it's perfectly fine. I don't think it's a Garland thing, I think it's a Boyle direction choice. But I have thoughts about that too, but we're already almost two hours into this.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:48

Yeah, but yeah, we could talk about that off my head.

SPEAKER_05 2:26:51

I I also just for to to keep track because we talk about with Alex, we're done with left turns, we're done with like a a third act switch. That was the military in 28 days later, that was Mark Strong and Sunshine. This is another original idea, like those are. It's not that he doubled down, he doubles down on his concepts and his ideas. Yeah, and I think that's what this is. Whether it be Caleb going crazy, and like I think I'm like, what is real and like what is it to be human? He doubled down on he doubles down on that, and that's going forward with Alex. I think his writing style is my third act. I'm going all the way in to whatever I started talking about. We're just going all the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:40

Well, and I think he still is doubling down on those first two movies, but it's he's not directing them.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:46

So Boyle has his own interpretation of what doubling down is. I get that. I think Garland's better at doubling down on his own execution. Because once we get to Annihilation next week, the third act of Annihilation is fucking bonkers, and I really think that is close to what Boyle did with his stuff. I'll be curious if you're going to have to do that.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:07

Yeah, we gotta talk about think of that.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:09

Yeah, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:10

Well, I'm honestly I don't know if you guys have ever read the read the trilogy.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:15

There's a fourth one that's out that hasn't been, and I'm rereading Annihilation before we watch it next week because I enjoy the book more than the movie. Um but yeah, we'll talk about it next week. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, Dave, thanks for joining us on this extra long sized podcast episode. And man, when stuff when there's stuff to talk about, it's just how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:36

It's gotta get talked about.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:37

Oh, I'm cutting half of it out. This is gonna be an hour and forty. He's just leaving in the stuff where I yell at him. Uh sorry, that's the stuff I take at all.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:47

I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:48

Tomorrow I'll try not to have mom and dad argue in front of our our other father.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:52

Oh, yeah, we gotta get it out now because tomorrow when John Morgan's here, it's we gotta try not to be like, You're fucking stupid. I get his reference, like a big brother each other, but it's also me and Nick can't help do the like you're you're so fucking smart, you're so fucking cool. Do you like me? Like it we are Philip Seymour Hoffman in the red car of like, do you like me? If if you don't, I'll take it back. Yeah, I'll take my car back.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:19

But yeah, we'll give John Morgan your best tomorrow. And yeah, thank you for joining us. And yeah, if you want to come back for anything else, yeah, we gotta get you on more.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:25

Yeah, for sure. I can do that. Well, I mean, I gotta beat Josh, so yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:29

Every episode's a dev's Dave will be back. Uh more like Dave's.

SPEAKER_03 2:29:35

Am I right? Hey. There we go. All right, podcast over. All right, love you guys.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:40

Love you guys, love you.